Martial Arts for kids

[puroagave]

Hi, Lee thats quite a resume. Ive got two boys under 10, the eldest was in taekwondo untill last summer we pulled him out not because he didnt enjoy it but it conflicted with other activities. we now want to start them both in a different discipline like judo, Aikido or karate. Whats your suggestion on other martial arts instruction that we should consider?

 

[RBFC]

Judo, brazilian jiujitsu, or wrestling would be ideal places to start. All of these allow students to practice against a fully-resistant opponent without high risk of injury. Striking arts such as taekwondo rarely allow students to fight realistically, limiting their understanding of in-field use. Confidence is similarly limited because one has little experience in the actual event.

Lee

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Judo, brazilian jiujitsu, or wrestling would be ideal places to start. All of these allow students to practice against a fully-resistant opponent without high risk of injury. Striking arts such as taekwondo rarely allow students to fight realistically, limiting their understanding of in-field use. Confidence is similarly limited because one has little experience in the actual event.

Lee

I wasn't going to stick my neck into Lee's threads on self defense but then I saw this post and . . . I just had to give a huge thumb's up to Lee's opinions and advice here. Short background: I started boxing in college and then kickboxed for a couple years. In my early 20s, however, I found the grappling arts. Back then it was pancrase and shootboxing. Then the Gracies and Machados invaded and BJJ gained a foothold that has never let up. I currently train at an Alliance BJJ school in my hometown (I'm 45 now but still roll on the mats every week and teach kids myself).

If you look at current mixed martial arts competitions there are basically three elements: striking (dominated by boxing and Muay Thai), BJJ (submission and heavily oriented to the ground), and wrestling (heavily oriented to takedowns and control on the feet). By far the most dominant fighters are those with grappling backgrounds who then learn to strike.

The point is that the grappling arts are the best foundation for self defense particularly if you can learn early -- like with kids.

My daughter Abigail is 8: http://vimeo.com/59377588

My son Ian is 6: http://vimeo.com/59376266

Abigail was 9-6 in her first season of wrestling against all boys, Ian was 11-4 wrestling primarily 7-8 year olds. Their first BJJ tournament (a NAGA competition for those interested) is in four weeks. We're in training for that now. What the grappling arts do so well is get the kids used to contact. Kids like mine wouldn't freak out if someone came up and grabbed them (for Lee: my daughter would get double underhooks quickly to a bodylock, use a trip if needed, put them down, mount them, turn them, and choke them out). The point is that becoming comfortable in uncomfortable situations is something martial arts should teach, and nothing does that better than the grappling arts. Grappling can also be used in a purely defensive mode if need be, but the offense can be ramped up too. Wrestling or BJJ? Frankly I love both and they can fit together hand-in-glove. Go with the best program in your area for either and you'll be good. Wrestling is a martial art, some call it the American martial art.

Guys, Lee knows what he's talking about, trust me. I am a long-time student of self defense myself and his answers are spot on (not that he needed any confirmation, but I was impressed and just had to say so).

 

[RBFC]

Jeff, thanks for the kind words. I was invited to fight in UFC2, back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth. I still wish I'd gone. Check out Kino Mutai for your daughter. With a delivery system like she's already developed, incorporation of the "foul" tactics like eye gouges, biting, etc. would make her hard to control for an adult.

The Marines have adopted a BJJ-based combatives program that allows recruits to train extremely hard without the same injury rates as previously seen. The confidence gained for many of these guys (most who have never even been in a fight in their lives) is considerable, and they aren't sent into actual service injured from their training. Perfect mixture of qualities for kids!

Lee

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff, thanks for the kind words. I was invited to fight in UFC2, back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth. I still wish I'd gone. Check out Kino Mutai for your daughter. With a delivery system like she's already developed, incorporation of the "foul" tactics like eye gouges, biting, etc. would make her hard to control for an adult.

The Marines have adopted a BJJ-based combatives program that allows recruits to train extremely hard without the same injury rates as previously seen. The confidence gained for many of these guys (most who have never even been in a fight in their lives) is considerable, and they aren't sent into actual service injured from their training. Perfect mixture of qualities for kids!

Lee

One of my training partners last year (before he was deployed) was a Marine Combatives instructor and so I do know what you say is true. In fact there is an Alliance instructor that just started teaching at Camp Lejeune this past week and we have many marines in our program (I'm 35 minutes from there). I will look up Kino Mutai. My plan for both of my kids is to continue with wrestling and BJJ and sprinkle in some striking techniques along the way -- and could certainly incorporate some "dirty" skills as you suggest.

You should have fought back then! You'd have a nice conversation piece that's for sure . . .

 

[RBFC]

Jeff, Paul Vunak has a Kino Mutai DVD floating around. If I'd fought back then, my conversation piece would be an arm that bent backward from Royce pretzeling me....

Lee

 

[rrr]

Judo, brazilian jiujitsu, or wrestling would be ideal places to start. All of these allow students to practice against a fully-resistant opponent without high risk of injury. Striking arts such as taekwondo rarely allow students to fight realistically, limiting their understanding of in-field use. Confidence is similarly limited because one has little experience in the actual event.

Lee

Yes, I wish that all parents understood that.

Maybe you could even add boxing to the list.

 

[mep]

Judo, brazilian jiujitsu, or wrestling would be ideal places to start. All of these allow students to practice against a fully-resistant opponent without high risk of injury. Striking arts such as taekwondo rarely allow students to fight realistically, limiting their understanding of in-field use. Confidence is similarly limited because one has little experience in the actual event.

Lee

Unless you trained with Chuck Loven.

 

[RBFC]

Unless you trained with Chuck Loven.

I had broken bones in my taekwondo training, Mark. I stated RARELY, not never, and there are liability issues and insurance hurdles now for schools regarding full-contact striking training.

Many, many taekwondo schools have adapted their curriculum to handle younger children, tying belt rank promotions to school/community performance, etc. The landscape is changing, but I have respect for the many guys (much like yourself) who've put in the work in realistic training at high force levels.

Lee

 

[JackD201]

I did Tae Kwon Do. To this day I question its real world effectivity. Competition rules forbid punching to the head for one. When in actual competition you rarely see turning longs or axe kicks. Its mostly punch kicks, 45s, side and turning sides and clinches for defense. Try a fancy kick in the real world and you'll find yourself on your back real quick. It was still a fun sport though. My vote goes to Judo.

 

[flez007]

I practiced Karate Do (Shoto Kan) for almost 8 years and got my black belt some many moons back, during the fiirst six months or so I was a tad more agressive, but as time passed the hard discipline and training not just calmed me down but made a more confident individual out of me - I encouraged my son (now 18) to practice martial arts and refused the idea, but decided to master Tennis whch in a way created a similar effect in his personality.

 

[puroagave]

thanks for the responses, Jeff your kids are impressive. We found a well regarded youth judo program at a regional buddhist church that we'll check out, there are many more dojos in our area than i thought possible. now to choose the right one.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

thanks for the responses, Jeff your kids are impressive. We found a well regarded youth judo program at a regional buddhist church that we'll check out, there are many more dojos in our area than i thought possible. now to choose the right one.

Thanks a bunch. Martial arts can be a great family activity that is great for bonding time too. There's something about training together that creates an immensely strong connection. So I encourage dads to participate too

 

[amirm]

Lee, I took Karate many decades back. When I took it, the teaching was rigorous. You had to get perfect scores or you would not advance to the next level. We put our kids in marshal arts class and noticed that they would pass all the kids no matter how many mistakes they made in their exams. There were kids that clearly had not learned much but they would all get their next "belt." So it seemed to me that the focus was to make money in these classes and not really teach the kids the skills. Likely they worried that if they did not advance them, the kids would lose motivation and drop out.

Is my experience typical?

 

[mep]

Lee, I took Karate many decades back. When I took it, the teaching was rigorous. You had to get perfect scores or you would not advance to the next level. We put our kids in marshal arts class and noticed that they would pass all the kids no matter how many mistakes they made in their exams. There were kids that clearly had not learned much but they would all get their next "belt." So it seemed to me that the focus was to make money in these classes and not really teach the kids the skills. Likely they worried that if they did not advance them, the kids would lose motivation and drop out.

Is my experience typical?

Sadly Amir, it's known as "money belts." Many schools are far more interested in their student enrollment rates than they are with how much people are really learning and improving in their skills. If kids don't keep progressing through the ranks, they and their parents might become discouraged and drop out. Also, there are normally testing fees associated with each rank you are testing for which are outside of the normal monthly fees you pay.

You can usually differentiate the 'serious' schools from the others by how hard they train the students and how realistic the sparring is.

 

[RBFC]

Lee, I took Karate many decades back. When I took it, the teaching was rigorous. You had to get perfect scores or you would not advance to the next level. We put our kids in marshal arts class and noticed that they would pass all the kids no matter how many mistakes they made in their exams. There were kids that clearly had not learned much but they would all get their next "belt." So it seemed to me that the focus was to make money in these classes and not really teach the kids the skills. Likely they worried that if they did not advance them, the kids would lose motivation and drop out.

Is my experience typical?

Unfortunately, yes. As I stated, the landscape has changed. There are still some isolated 'hard-core" programs left, but the vast majority are focused on student retention = $$$. The business publications about martial arts focus mostly on kid "camps", etc. that are part teaching, part baby-sitting. I actually had a guy call me and ask if I'd accept his 2 & 3 year olds into my classes.....

Lee

 

[Orb]

Yeah Amir.
Problem I see (or saw) was that modern society/people in the majority are not inclined to the more traditional/rigorous/disciplined training and importantly the physical/mental pain.
So I feel quite a few classes/schools had to adapt to encourage attendance.
I have noticed this myself both for the Chinese and Japanese styles and attitudes back in lates 80s-90s and change to now.
I remember still in the 80s karate was taught as intended for full combat (although moves from katas would subtly be adjusted) with some pretty violent teaching from the Japanese when they came over; either you took it and adapted or left.
Now days I doubt that many karate classes/schools follow the approach that also included mental discipline - open classes anyway as applied to majority.
Same goes with the Chinese martial arts (fortunate to had experienced both traditional Chinese and Japanese styles and training).

Most styles are being diluted for open classes I would say, with smaller closed/traditional training offered.

BTW regarding Judo it may be surprising but taught at an advanced level this does have quite a few injuries; from my experience full-on judo training will have injuries (broken fingers/nose, dislocations-etc) when taught at a high level, although this is great for the mindset of dealing with aggression/pain and self defense.
Same problem like say Chinese Tai Chi is finding a school/class that can teach this as it was meant to be - a martial art with full contact intent.

Cheers
Orb

 

[amirm]

Don't tell me about Judo and pain! When I was in college, I thought I needed to take three PE classes to get my degree (after the fact I found out I did not!). So I thought I take Judo. The day to day experience was not too bad other than smelling the other guy's sweaty under arm for minutes while he had you in the hold and the instructor would say what to do next! Then I missed one class. The instructor said I had to make up for it. I asked how. He said there is get together at the college on the weekend for anyone who wanted to come and I should go to that. I go there and I see a bunch of people way above my grade. Brown, black belt, etc. We get paired up and rotate. At first I got a guy my level so we were OK. We rotate one and I am next to one of these brown belts. We engage and before I know what is going on, I am flying in the air and land flat on my back. He had flipped me over his back but he did so fast that none of my teaching came to play in how to land and defend it. Not sure if it broke anything but I was in pain for weeks and had trouble breathing.

Could not believe the instructor did not warn me or tell the other guy to take it easy on me.

 

[mep]

Could not believe the instructor did not warn me or tell the other guy to take it easy on me.

That was your punishment for missing that one class.

 

[Orb]

Yeah he probably provided a photo of you Amir to all the senior belts and said kick his butt

Seriously though, at higher levels I am yet to know someone who has not had a broken nose or fingers/dislocation from Judo

My pet hate is a dislocated toe (well ignoring nose as us men always like to think we are handsome hahaha), always used to make me feel sick putting it back (thankfully not happened often).
Probably best part of Shiatsu training is being able to deal with dislocations/sprains/breaks, pretty handy as it made up for the fact I really could not get into/enjoy Shiatsu and time passed rather slowly along with the studying required.

How many have considered learning Shiatsu (or anything similar for medical/healing) as part of their martial background?
Also great for discipline if approached seriously.

Cheers
Orb