Do electrostats have a "plastic" coloration?
- Thread starter caesar
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Not any more. He wrote about that ages ago. That would be like saying that is it true that HP said solid-state is bright; true maybe years ago, but not applicable certainly to the current gen or ss electronics
I have never heard anyone (at any time in the last 20 years) say 'plastic' about a 'stat. Obviously about plenty of cones. I suppose if the 'stat' film was overtaxed beyond its limits, you would get some serious distortion, plasticky (and other) aberrations. But i can't help but wonder whether it wasn't actually the upstream components' plasticky nature being revealed in a time when many cones might have been counteracting or hiding the upstream 'plastic'?
I do remember reading that Martin Colloms felt the first series of Wilson X1/Grand Slamm was a bit sterile in the treble...until he put vinyl on and it "all but disappeared"...and he concluded (as we now know in retrospect) that it was the vintage '90s DACs which were a bit sterile. He called the speakers a microscope that reached all the way back into the chain...so high quality vinyl sounded natural, but digital sounded sterile. I can imagine well-designed (even older) Stats do something very similar (as a general rule, not an absolute one).
I do remember reading that Martin Colloms felt the first series of Wilson X1/Grand Slamm was a bit sterile in the treble...until he put vinyl on and it "all but disappeared"...and he concluded (as we now know in retrospect) that it was the vintage '90s DACs which were a bit sterile. He called the speakers a microscope that reached all the way back into the chain...so high quality vinyl sounded natural, but digital sounded sterile. I can imagine well-designed (even older) Stats do something very similar (as a general rule, not an absolute one).
ive heard the Martin logan CLS sound 'plasticky' same with esl-63s ive owned. never heard those colorations with my ESL-57s or Soundlab A-3s when i owned those. in hindsight it was probably the sound of overdriven panels w/ low freq. resulting in the diaphram slapping the stators - just a theory. not being stats, ive owned maggies and apogee duettas that had similar colorations. i dont have the balls to over drive my 57's as i love them too much. i remember 250 krell-watts per side couldnt peak the A-3.
I think HP was referring to early Accoustats when talking about that plastic coloration. Thing is HP doesn't know the cause of the coloration eg. is it the diaphram, transformer, parts, etc.
Years ago he talked about the Magnepan sound; yes it existed but it wasn't caused by what he thought. Actually it was due to the parts selection in the Magnepan at that time eg. polyester caps (not to mention those hideous ferromagnetic leads that serve no purpose other than allowing the cap to be automatically picked up off the assembly line), iron chokes, alpha wire, etc. Get rid of that and it was a different speaker altogether (esp with the ribbon).
ok...here goes one's man's attempt at it. When you stike middle C on a piano very hard and play that through a pair of great speakers, you should instantly be able to recognize the strike of the key to the board, and the sonorous body of the note. In particular the first part...the strike of the key all the way down to the board...should sound like heavy resonance of wood, ivory, metal. Sometimes, when you come across a speaker that cannot handle the powerful strike, the depth of the note and deliver the fullness of the note, the strike ends up sounding shallow, and the deep powerful strike peters out too quickly and the note itself no longer seems to resonate in a heavy wood, and metail cabinet but (you guessed it) a plastic or flimsy one. The resonance of the note does not have that pure sound of a piano...i hope this is helpful. i imagine you may have heard this before. that is (my) definition of plasticky. no doubt someone else may have a very different definition.
That sounds to me more that the amp hasn't got the grunt to deliver the sound to the speaker, rather than the speaker itself. The older electrostatics are a pretty vicious load to an amp, and the power supplies in ones not up to it collapse under the stress of trying to do the job. Hook up a Krell with sufficient meat, and in good condition, and I'd bet there wouldn't be any problems ...
Frank
Yes but if the amplifier wasn't up to the task, the first thing one would probably hear, esp. back then, would be a loss of dynamics and soundstage. And yes speakers like the Dayton-Wrights needed an arc welder to drive them.
Under some special conditions electrostatic speakers can have a typical sound some of us associate with "plastic" coloration. I have heard it with both types of Quads, Audiostatics, Martin Logan or Soundlabs.
I think it is intrinsic to the mylar film and can be much exacerbated by incompatible equipment or room acoustics. Under normal conditions, with the proper setup it is almost inaudible. Some recordings can help to show it. "Friday night in San Francisco" is a terrible test for it, as it shows clearly in plucked strings.
This effect should not be mixed with the bass resonance of the mylar, that can have a characteristic coloration, and was much reduced in SoundLabs or Martin Logans by the introduction of distributed resonance stators and other techniques.
I think it is intrinsic to the mylar film and can be much exacerbated by incompatible equipment or room acoustics. Under normal conditions, with the proper setup it is almost inaudible. Some recordings can help to show it. "Friday night in San Francisco" is a terrible test for it, as it shows clearly in plucked strings.
This effect should not be mixed with the bass resonance of the mylar, that can have a characteristic coloration, and was much reduced in SoundLabs or Martin Logans by the introduction of distributed resonance stators and other techniques.
The bizarre thing, that most people don't realise, is that a single, high level, continuous note is much more stressful on an amp, in fact everything, than a very busy mix, that sounds very loud. You know the warnings on test CDs that send a single frequency at full volume, or close to it, through your system, they mean it for very good reasons! An opera singer hitting a high note and sustaining it is vastly more difficult to render than a heavy metal track thrashing itself to death. So, a system may do excellent soundstage, etc, but give it one solitary, maximum volume note and it will go bye byes ...
Frank
Not in my experience. If an amp is suffering duress because of the load of the speaker (that is what we were talking about before the topic was changed to instantaneous peak performance), then the music will be sluggish and boring. No get up and go.
i wasnt even thinking HP when i saw the post. back in the day any number or fellow 'philes and dealers would refer to 'plastic' colorations when comparing different panel speakers. quality power wasnt an issue many used ARC M300, Krell KMA/MDA and Rowland 7s, etc. for lack of a better description its more like a 'tizz' or 'buzz' acompanying the music, not to be confused with panel/frame resonances or other maladies.
many of the panel-type speakers ive owned had under damped panels, presumebly to enahnce the bass fullness at the expense of some weird uncontrolled transient behavior, im thinking Apogee duetta now. Many stats like the CLS were only supported at its edges and prone to diaphram sag - maybe thats what we heard.
Much of what's described seems more related to associated equipment deficiencies and possible room resonances. For instance the solo piano test mentioned earlier will cause room ringing depending on placement and room size, but assuming typical rooms, its easy for a large electrostat to over-energize certain frequencies in a room that no point source 1" tweeter could ever do.
As a long-term member of the MartinLogan club, I can tell you way to many people run their stats with insufficient power and once they go to an amp that can deliver the current into low impedance, they rave about the improvement.
Not to say some stats might not be engineered right, but every MartinLogan or soundlab I've heard performed well as a speaker, some sounded worse due to room issues, which is why that's worth noting.
As a long-term member of the MartinLogan club, I can tell you way to many people run their stats with insufficient power and once they go to an amp that can deliver the current into low impedance, they rave about the improvement.
Not to say some stats might not be engineered right, but every MartinLogan or soundlab I've heard performed well as a speaker, some sounded worse due to room issues, which is why that's worth noting.
... and to add to Jonathan's comments, there are a number of ongoing crossover mods by ML members, and mine was met with resounding success - no plastic sound, no ringing, simply spectacular you-are-there sound (subject to the abilities of the recording, and not including large orchestral pieces, but still respectable). It feels MLs' Achilles's heel is the crossover execution.
With respect to power, people have often asked me why I need these powerful monoblocks; well, because they bring the speakers to life and control them extremely well. Myles runs his with CJ monos as well and probably for similar reasons.
With respect to power, people have often asked me why I need these powerful monoblocks; well, because they bring the speakers to life and control them extremely well. Myles runs his with CJ monos as well and probably for similar reasons.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
IMO, plastic coloration with electrostats, paper coloration with paper drivers, metallic coloration with metal drivers, have more to do with the crossovers than it does with the drivers themselves. Of course, other speaker designers will have different opinions and will never use metal drivers for example. After the crossover, then the amplifiers make the second biggest difference. I have heard the most glorious choral reproduction from Martin Logans, for example. No plastic there!! But that takes megawatts.
Hi Gary,
Let me open a can of worms here...and something on behalf of us non-techies. I totally understand and accept (from experience) that endless reserves of power can be exceptionally important in certain systems. The question i have for you is this:
- in your mind, from an engineering and audio perspective, is there much difference in your mind for Martin Logans (or in my case big Wilsons) between a 200 watt amp with ridiculous headroom (5000watt peak into 0.5 ohm load and 400,000 mf capacitance)...and a high quality 1000 watt amp (also doubling down, etc), all else being relatively equal (ie same quality of capacitors, transistors, isolation, etc)...
Once one passes the simple "double watts to add 3db math" test...and can get to, say, 120db of constant sound without strain...what then is the difference from a sound perspective between 200watts and 1000? I am not questioning whether there is or not (i fully admit i do not know)...and wish to learn from someone with serious experence (and who is actually building a 1000+ watt amp).
thanks for any 'simple man's' explanations!
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