CJ ART Monos & Zanden 9600 Monos

[microstrip]

Micro-what is more *advanced* about recent design tube amps? Are you referring to bigger power supplies and the latest generation of CJ output transformers or something else?

Although the best known upgrade were the proprietary Teflon capacitors, most of the improvements in CJ designs have been in power supply design. They improved the quality of the passive components used in the power supply, and changed some of the discrete regulator topologies. I have owned the ACT2 and ACT2 series 2 and the improvement in sound that a few changes operated has very large - and mainly in the sense Lloyd is looking for - purity of sound. As I am very curious and access to CJ boards is very good I studied very well both circuits.

Probably the output transformers of recent amplifier have also been upgraded - but I never learned about it.

 

[LL21]

The MV60 is an outdated amplifier - although you can improve it a lot upgrading the capacitors, it should not be compared with more advanced or recent designs. IMHO the bass of the MV60 can not do justice to your speakers, and will affect your perception of the middle frequencies.

Completely agree...was simply making a comment with respect to your observation about great SS and your sense of the best tubes and their purity of tonality/delicacy. Even an MV60 was a match for the mighty Antileon.

 

[LL21]

Hi

While we audiophiles marvel at smallish differences brought in by different amplifiers of the same level of quality., I believe that speakers make the most difference in a system. I have come to see that differences between superlative gears is that of flavors. Not of truly intrinsic qualities. lateral moves abound in Audio, just a different sound and often a drop but since we are now paying attention we call it improvement , until the next ...lateral move.

I am certain there is some cash going from you to your dealer, I doubt it will be from him to you. You have an excellent top flight system. No doubt. IMHO, the X-2 is vastly superior to the X-1. Not by a small margin, I have heard both and some here who have had both could chime in. Your system as it is is world-class; if there is limitation in your system it is not the amp it is the speakers... . IOW, your system will not truly improve with a change from a superlative amp to another superlative amp with a different flavor, it will simply change. A move to the X-2 brings it to the next level. I would add if possible to the X-2 a pair of subs, I would look into subs I personally think are superior to the Velodyne: Paradigm Sub 1, Seaton (Price is right), JL Audio, etc. And I would keep everything else. It may end up costing you slightly more but in the end you would have a vastly better system. A Superlative system.

All that IMO, some other people would have a different view, YMMV, all the usual caveats and modifiers.

I Hope I don't come across parochial. If I do please accept my apologies.

First of all, thank you. i respect your opintion...and it is always good when someone steps up to try to set people straight.

Second, i agree with you. If i had the extra cash and wanted to make the plunge with it...upgrading the speakers is the way to go.

Third, this is possibly a cashless exercise for me...and further allow me with the same dealer to possibly get a piece of the trade-in towards a Zanden transport...with some cash top up...which puts me in the position of having a comparable amp...and the transport...for not much actual further cash outlay.

A far cry from the cash outlay i would have to provide to trade X1s (even mint) for X2s...

 

[XV-1]

Yes, I agree music is not only about ultimate bass control. I only mentioned this because this is one area where the Gryphon particularly excelled. As for the others...tonal purity, power with finesse, macro and micro dynamics, etc, etc. the Gryphon has them in spades and then some. The Mephisto and I believe, the Colosseum as well, are probably only a handful of ss amps that have the delicacy and sweetness of tubes.

You can add D'Agostino Momentum M & S amps to that handful.

I think Lloyd is more hankering for his holy grail Zanden Transport without being out of pocket too much. A fine balancing act indeed.

 

[LL21]

You can add D'Agostino Momentum M & S amps to that handful.

I think Lloyd is more hankering for his holy grail Zanden Transport without being out of pocket too much. A fine balancing act indeed.

Agree...on both! the Momentum is delicate, superbly finely woven in the mids/treble...and its a D'Agostino design and has great bass control.

But as Turntable points out...if i can get the Zanden Transport after hankering for it for 5 years...and end up with a pretty SOTA set of amps...that does not seem crazy for not much outlay.

 

[microstrip]

(...) While we audiophiles marvel at smallish differences brought in by different amplifiers of the same level of quality., I believe that speakers make the most difference in a system. I have come to see that differences between superlative gears is that of flavors. Not of truly intrinsic qualities. lateral moves abound in Audio, just a different sound and often a drop but since we are now paying attention we call it improvement , until the next ...lateral move.

Frantz,

It can seem illogical to claim that the small differences are more important than the large ones in the perception of sound quality and enjoyment, but IMHO it can happen. A small difference can ruin your effort in achieving a great sound reproduction, particularly in high resolution systems. Elimination of this "small defect" can be a large success.

You are completely right when you say that most changes are lateral moves. But when carried with expertise, and due to the large variety of equipment some audiophiles mix, also some luck , a few changes of electronics create a large increase of sound quality. From my experience, in order to increase the probability of success we should avoid mixing brands of preamplifiers and amplifiers. If you like the typical sound of a brand you should maximize their capabilities joining their pieces. The same applies to cables, that sometimes are called to try to save a mix of incompatible equipment. Mixtures with great variety very often just lead to lateral moves. Few people are able to perform vertical moves. But when we achieve it, it is compensating.

BTW, once you assemble a proper system around a speaker, the difference between it and another speaker in an also adequate system, becomes much smaller. Comparing speakers in the same system is a futile exercise - you are just comparing the matching between the system and the speaker. As usual, others will think differently.

 

[Thf99]

Before you do anything on digital, Lloyd, take a listen to the CH Precision combo. I don't know if it's better than the Zandens. Right now, I have the D1 on loan and it's the other piece of equipment that has the "wow" factor. The C1 dac is much better I was told.

 

[LL21]

Before you do anything on digital, Lloyd, take a listen to the CH Precision combo. I don't know if it's better than the Zandens. Right now, I have the D1 on loan and it's the other piece of equipment that has the "wow" factor. The C1 dac is much better I was told.

Thanks for that. I spoke with TK about this, and i have heard great things about the former Anagram guys who design CH. For me, i trade very rarely and when i do its purely opportunistic with as minimal cash outlay as possible. Thus, i think the CH1 is probably great...but i will say having heard Scarlatti, Wadia s7i, Metronome Kalista Ref/C2A, Audio Aero La Source, TAD D600, Esoteric X-01SE, Emm CDSA, Stahl-Tek Vekian (original)...i have not found anything that has made wish to trade nor even consider moving. If anything, given that i already have the Zanden (ie, 0 cash outlay)...it has made me focus on sticking with what i have/getting the Zanden Transport for minimal cash outlay...particularly since i'm redbook only which is the vast majority of music available in digital...and at 3 bucks an album second hand on Amazon.

Please do let us know your thoughts on CH1...i would be most interested to hear! Enjoy!!!

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

It can seem illogical to claim that the small differences are more important than the large ones in the perception of sound quality and enjoyment, but IMHO it can happen. A small difference can ruin your effort in achieving a great sound reproduction, particularly in high resolution systems. Elimination of this "small defect" can be a large success.

You are completely right when you say that most changes are lateral moves. But when carried with expertise, and due to the large variety of equipment some audiophiles mix, also some luck , a few changes of electronics create a large increase of sound quality. From my experience, in order to increase the probability of success we should avoid mixing brands of preamplifiers and amplifiers. If you like the typical sound of a brand you should maximize their capabilities joining their pieces. The same applies to cables, that sometimes are called to try to save a mix of incompatible equipment. Mixtures with great variety very often just lead to lateral moves. Few people are able to perform vertical moves. But when we achieve it, it is compensating.

BTW, once you assemble a proper system around a speaker, the difference between it and another speaker in an also adequate system, becomes much smaller. Comparing speakers in the same system is a futile exercise - you are just comparing the matching between the system and the speaker. As usual, others will think differently.

Let's suppose that Lloyd didn't have the limitations he outlined, what do you think would provide a better system:

A move from the Colosseum (great amps by all accounts) to the Zanden (Another Great amps by all accounts) with the X-1?

or

Keeping the system as is and moving to the X-2??

No Brainer for anyone with X-2 and that includes you

One can certainly compare speakers in the same system and when possible that is what one should do (Within the confines of electrical parameters matching) And I have done it with great success. The way you describe system building would scare a neophyte . There are Billions of combinations and it seems it is a chance game to reach a system that plays well . No! It is NOT so.
Just to stay within what LLoyd is looking for : I have heard Wilson with countless of electronics and they simply sound like Wilson with the personality of the electronics intact: Spectra, Krell, ARC, Lamm, Boulder, Halcro, CJ, Bryston, Classe, Theta, Luxman, Goldmund and Yes Burmester but the shock to me was listening to aWP5 I believe at CES, driven by a Sony AVR .. Well it sounded like a Wilson to me and rather good I must add. The limitations of the AVR were also audible but it was more than decent IME.

 

[LL21]

Let's suppose that Lloyd didn't have the limitations he outlined, what do you think would provide a better system:

A move from the Colosseum (great amps by all accounts) to the Zanden (Another Great amps by all accounts) with the X-1?

or

Keeping the system as is and moving to the X-2??

No Brainer for anyone with X-2 and that includes you

One can certainly compare speakers in the same system and when possible that is what one should do (Within the confines of electrical parameters matching) And I have done it with great success. The way you describe system building would scare a neophyte . There are Billions of combinations and it seems it is a chance game to reach a system that plays well . No! It is NOT so.
Just to stay within what LLoyd is looking for : I have heard Wilson with countless of electronics and they simply sound like Wilson with the personality of the electronics intact: Spectra, Krell, ARC, Lamm, Boulder, Halcro, CJ, Bryston, Classe, Theta, Luxman, Goldmund and Yes Burmester but the shock to me was listening to aWP5 I believe at CES, driven by a Sony AVR .. Well it sounded like a Wilson to me and rather good I must add. The limitations of the AVR were also audible but it was more than decent IME.

If I end up with Zanden Transport and a great amp, then other than a couple cables or isolation blocks...the electronics are, as i like to say, 'fully evolved'. The system has gone as far as it can go in each area...and the only bit that i might stretch further is the speaker...old Rockport Arrakis I maybe...(maybe). Then the entire system is 'fully evolved'...and the only way goin forward is to either sit back and enjoy...or start a new system again with a totally different (or totally higher) fundamental basis. This is how i've built my 2 prior systems as well. Takes time...the first piece of this system began '08 and target to finish this year.

 

[FrantzM]

Lloyd,

I like your slow moving ways. Same here. Building a really unimpressive, speaker-based system these days ..
Arakis? My friend, based on what I heard on the Ankarra or was it the Aquila (too many strange names ) I have the feeling the Arakis is something to behold.. Go with your feeling man ! Let us know ...

 

[LL21]

Lloyd,

I like your slow moving ways. Same here. Building a really unimpressive, speaker-based system these days ..
Arakis? My friend, based on what I heard on the Ankarra or was it the Aquila (too many strange names ) I have the feeling the Arakis is something to behold.. Go with your feeling man ! Let us know ...

For sure...i once found one deeply discounted, but the timing was all wrong and its been sold. In any event, first things first...lets settle the transport and/or amp, clean up the couple of bits of cabling upgrades. And sit back and enjoy...while remaining on the lookout for the Arrakis I.

 

[flez007]

I have said this before, but..have you tried a Gryphon preamp in your system recently?

 

[LL21]

I have said this before, but..have you tried a Gryphon preamp in your system recently?

Hi Flez...i have never had the opportunity...truth be told the CJ GAT is stunning with the system. i am exceedingly happy with the CJ-Gryphon combination...i am NOT looking to change sound...i am looking to see how close to replicating it i can get with another amp...which gives me some leeway to get the Zanden transport. these 2 options occured to me because of the opportunities to acquire them at discounts. We shall see. No foregone conclusions yet, but i am exploring a new way to get at the Transport.

 

[Uk Paul]

Rob the bank??

 

[LL21]

Rob the bank??

I think i am happy to continue be persistent... After all...i am still on the lookout longterm for a secondhand pair of Arrakis I's!!!

 

[andromedaaudio]

If youre still in for the arrakis keep the gryphon i would say , as i almost always see an arrakis biamped by powerfull amps , i would think its very difficult to drive .

 

[LL21]

If youre still in for the arrakis keep the gryphon i would say , as i almost always see an arrakis biamped by powerfull amps , i would think its very difficult to drive .

agree...i have asked a Rockport dealer who said Arrakis I can be driven comfortably by single Colosseum. I suppose better with more...more effortless. but in no way would i expect Zanden to drive them nearly as well...perhaps CJ ART monos... thanks in any event.