Help Refine this system, please!

[audiopie]

Or go the Murat route where he replaced the top level Tidal and Gryphon Mephisto with the most spectacular DIY horn journey

Not my glass of wine. But, I would love to demo horns that don't actually sound like horns. Most Berning amps go to people with horn speakers.

 

[audiopie]

your sources are wonderful, and are worthy of any amp/speaker combination. your amps (i've had them in my system) are top flight, and your speakers are also top flight (not heard that model but i have heard the Akira and was mightily impressed.....not an easy load for modestly powered tubes).

on the one hand, too many changes at the same time become chaos. on the other hand being locked into either the amps or the speakers might prevent the right solution.

i don't know about your room, or your next anticipated room. but you need to start there. if you really want it all, then decide where you are going with your room, and then find a speaker/amp combo that turns you on and is scaled to the room you intend to have. don't feel restricted by keeping your current amps or speakers, but be open to that. but know that the magic will be optimizing your future room around your choice of speakers and amps. room > speakers > amps. no matter your choices, that will only be a starting point. getting even the right room right takes work.

if you are drawn to tubes, but like the refinement, linearity and low noise of solid state, that has been exactly my perspective, and darTZeel amplification has done it for me. i preferred it in my system to your amps, and preferred it to ML3 Lamm's and VAC 450 Statements. then find a 92-95 db efficient speaker that you like that has the right energy for your room. the dart stereo 108 model two won't break the bank and is 200 watts. the dart mono blocks are fantastic, but with a price to match. likely 200 dart watts would work great with your Tidal's depending on the room and your expectations.

Mike,
Thanks for your thoughtful input. The room is a problem but I can't do anything about it for about 2 years. It may be that I have to stick with what I have until then, but I want to explore the options now as it will take a long time to go out and demo many of the products being recommended, and I will demo many of them.
So, are you saying that you are getting the rich tonal quality of tubes with the DarTZeel amps? What speakers are you using?

 

[audiopie]

Some great wisdom, advice and perspectives here ( this thread could be a sticky as far as I am concerned ).

@audiopie I don't know if you plan to be in your current home / space long...some basic ( read not tweaky ) work on your power infrastructure might be helpful. Things like testing the grounding and such.

How would I test the grounding? I do have a star ground box with everything plugged into it prior to the PS20.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
Thanks for your thoughtful input. The room is a problem but I can't do anything about it for about 2 years. It may be that I have to stick with what I have until then, but I want to explore the options now as it will take a long time to go out and demo many of the products being recommended, and I will demo many of them.
So, are you saying that you are getting the rich tonal quality of tubes with the DarTZeel amps? What speakers are you using?

what the dart amps do is not really added richness in terms of coloration, more a matter of allowing the fullness of music to come through. the music is complete, and relatively grain-less compared to other solid state.......and a "continuousness" if you will. you do get tonal density and rich harmonics when they are on the recording. it might help to read the last paragraph of this Fremer review for his way of saying it.

Boulder Amplifiers 2150 monoblock power amplifier Page 2

www.stereophile.com

my amps are the new version of Fremer's darts referred to in that review. he now also has my same newer version. darTZeel has a minimalist signal path, with zero global feedback. you hear the music unfettered; not constricted and squeezed down.

here is my system;

Mike Lavigne's System | Virtual Listening Room

mikelavigne's listening room featuring Evolution Acoustics MM7's, darTZeel NHB-468, darTZeel NHB-18NS, Evolution Acoustics 7.5 meter 'Zeel', MSB Technology Select II with dual power supplies and 33 Femto clock, MSB Pro USB, Gobel LaCorde Statement USB cable, Taiko Audio Extreme Music server...

systems.audiogon.com

 

[Solypsa]

How would I test the grounding? I do have a star ground box with everything plugged into it prior to the PS20.

I was thinking of the sort of work that looks at your home electrical infrastructure. Maybe its good. Maybe not. This could mean having a new ground rod installed, maybe a subpanel for the audio, maybe there is noise from the refer or dimmers that could be isolated...lots of maybe. Given the cost of a loom of any high-end cables giving your house electrical a basic look over and tune up can be quite trivial cost wise.

 

[Solypsa]

Oh and if the speakers become the target; in addition to higher efficiency ypu might also research 16 ohm options. See @Atmasphere many and very useful comments on this topic.

 

[Solypsa]

Not my glass of wine. But, I would love to demo horns that don't actually sound like horns. Most Berning amps go to people with horn speakers.

I have a client using Berning with full range cones. Sounds pretty great.

I don't mean to put you on the spot but why would you say "not my glass of wine" about the horns referenced?

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
I also want to clarify that I want to optimize using the digital side, the analog side will be ignored for now.

With Extreme + Pacific there is no where to go but down on digital, so there is nothing to do there.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
Regarding the Contriva's, they are very transparent. If your front end is thin or sterile sounding, that's what you will hear, if it is bright, that's what you will hear. "It's a clear glass of water", I quote this from Doug White the US dealer for Tidal, but I think that this sums it up. I have never heard them sound sterile or bright.

For many years I always heard Boulder systems as sounding sterile, but that changed with the 1100 and 2100 series. They maintained detail, clarity, resolution etc, but no longer sound sterile. I guess they could sound sterile with the wrong mix of other components, but I find they achieved a new, improved sound.

. . .

I am very sensitive to that sonic sense of "sterility," so I know I would find myself listening to music less and less if I were listening to Tidal + Boulder + Nordost. To my ears this combination would not achieve the "rich tonal color" you seek. I understand why your system presently is not satisfying to you.

I totally respect the contrary preference. One audiophile's "sterile and bright" is another audiophile's "clear glass of water."

 

[Al M.]

Not my glass of wine. But, I would love to demo horns that don't actually sound like horns. Most Berning amps go to people with horn speakers.

Could you please specify which coloration you hear? To me it's just generally bright and a bit bleached out, but I don't hear a particularly horny coloration.

Great music though.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Both are really great products, but I think that the speakers would work better with more powerful amps, and the amps would work better with more sensitive speakers (currently about 86db). (...)

Great components, but are you sure of this value? The Tidal Contriva G2 are considered tube friendly and have powerful neodymium magnets, I would expect them to be more sensitive.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Not my glass of wine. But, I would love to demo horns that don't actually sound like horns. Most Berning amps go to people with horn speakers.

lol good one
Be carefull what you say on this forum , horns can be a rather touchy subject

 

[andromedaaudio]

Fwiw first thing : i d try a different pre amp , Boulder can be a bit sterile .
I probably sound like a broken clock but since you like tubes CAT legend is a great pre

 

[sbnx]

Hello,

You are likely overwhelmed with information and opinion at this point but I will offer a little more.

Great job seeking out an expert to help dial in your speakers. If you change your amp you will most likely need to re-set the speakers. Especially true if you go from tube to SS.

I would get a big SS amp and see what that does in terms of driving your speakers. This will answer the question if some of the issues are due to a lack of power to drive your speakers. Since you want a rich tone I would suggest Gryphon.

On the Lampi…as you know it brings a lot of richness to the table and offers a lot of flexibility in sound depending on tube choice. However, it is not the king of imaging and separation. Images are larger and more diffuse through the Pacific than say the MSB or Mola or several other choices.

On the subject of imaging...room reflections play a very important role. early reflections will damage imaging and can damage timbre. Some of this depends on the speakers off axis response. It will depend on how close the speakers are to the boundary. The exciting news is that you are planning on doing something room related which will hopefully address these issues.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

Ron, the Fyne F1-12 look interesting. I'll demo them at some point.
. . .

I have no dog in the speaker hunt. I have enjoyed greatly tagging along with KeithR over the last several years, hearing, among other speakers, Rockport Altair II, Sonus Faber, Tannoy Westminster RG, YG Sonja 2.2, YG Hailey 2, YG XV Jr., Wilson Alexia II, Wilson Alexx, Wilson XVX, Stenheim.

We audiophiles often make putting a system together very complicated. It does not have to be that way.

For example, I have said for a few years now that I think one could buy the Rockport Lyra and the Absolare Hybrid amp, add ancillaries, and live happily every after. No fuss, no muss, no equipment revolving door (just a very big initial big expenditure). I still feel that is an example of a "one and done" loudspeaker/amp pairing.

After hearing the Fyne F1-12 several times now in KeithR's system, I feel similarly about the F1-12. While we have not heard a 75 watt or so tube amp on the F1-12 I am willing to bet all comers that I personally would find something like the ARC REF75SE to be a perfect match with the F1-12. I think a combination like that is something someone can buy once, forget about, and then spend the rest of his/her life enjoying the music.

 

[LL21]

Audiopie, somehow I look at your collection of fantastic audio...and I hate to see you break it up into a protracted game of Tetris...constantly flipping, substituting, re-shaping a system of already great components.

The issues you identify do not pinpoint a particular 100% dead-certain weakness...but I do look at your amp/speaker combination and wonder whether you might try 2 very simple options FIRST just to see if this inter-link is where you wish to focus in the chain:

1. Try a Class A beast in your existing system. Gryphon comes to mind as another member said
2.Try a more efficient speaker with your existing system. Goebel Noblesse at 95db 4ohms? Rockport Lyra seems intuitively like a great sound here....but I dont know if (even at 90db efficiency) you are going to be able to really test drive them to their fullest with the Bernings.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Maybe KeithR can chime in here. He ultimately had to give up pairing low efficiency/very hard to drive spkrs w any number of amps that fell short of iron grip capabilities.
Maybe the issue here is similar.

 

[Al M.]

:1. Try a Class A beast in your existing system. Gryphon comes to mind as another member said.

That may be worth a try.

2.Try a more efficient speaker with your existing system. Goebel Noblesse at 95db 4ohms?

Possibly, perhaps, just maybe?

Rockport Lyra seems intuitively like a great sound here....but I dont know if (even at 90db efficiency) you are going to be able to really test drive them to their fullest with the Bernings.

No chance.

I might put the Berning on my 92 dB sensitive, 8 Ohm two-way monitors (monitors are usually much easier to drive), but that's about it. Horns would work, if you can find the right ones.

 

[bonzo75]

Not my glass of wine. But, I would love to demo horns that don't actually sound like horns. Most Berning amps go to people with horn speakers.

Are you used to videos or are you of the opinion many things in video suck?

 

[stehno]

Are you used to videos or are you of the opinion many things in video suck?

More importantly, let's hope he has ears to hear, eh?

I'll bet dollars-to-donuts his primary performance bottleneck is incoming electrical. It most always is for everybody anyway but I'm guessing especially in this case.