Analog, Digital and all that

[Solypsa]

I think Mike pretty much nailed it.

I am a vinyl guy. I sell and setup vinyl systems. I used to own a Neumann vinyl mastering system. So i have a bias

One of my friend/clients has a decent digital system (NADAC player) running dsp controlled Genelec speakers. We demo'd an analog system (STST Motus II/GMII 12"/Sensitive Sound Verona/Audiospecials phono. It is around $20k as a total sysyem for reference...

They have a smattering of lps, mostly new releases, some 90s etc. In the context of 'those recordings' they felt that digital was getting them there as well as analog. Sure the analog sounded fantastic, but so did the digital. Different sure but both good.

I think analog gets you there for less overall cost with the 'right recordings'. If people care about that is another matter.

I still think vinyl is the way for begining audiphiles as well as end-game audiophiles of a certain musical bent...but in the middle its not so easy.

 

[jespera]

I think Mike pretty much nailed it.

I am a vinyl guy. I sell and setup vinyl systems. I used to own a Neumann vinyl mastering system. So i have a bias

One of my friend/clients has a decent digital system (NADAC player) running dsp controlled Genelec speakers. We demo'd an analog system (STST Motus II/GMII 12"/Sensitive Sound Verona/Audiospecials phono. It is around $20k as a total sysyem for reference...

They have a smattering of lps, mostly new releases, some 90s etc. In the context of 'those recordings' they felt that digital was getting them there as well as analog. Sure the analog sounded fantastic, but so did the digital. Different sure but both good.

I think analog gets you there for less overall cost with the 'right recordings'. If people care about that is another matter.

I still think vinyl is the way for begining audiphiles as well as end-game audiophiles of a certain musical bent...but in the middle its not so easy.

If you put it through a dsp (or a digital hearing aid) you wont be able to hear what analog can do.

Likewise, if you only play new lps that come from a digital masters, then there really is no point.

 

[jespera]

Lenco L70 300 usd
Denon dl 103 300 usd
Cinemag trafo 500 usd
New bearing 300 usd
Copper mat 400 usd
Supra cables 300 usd
Leben phono stage 2500 usd
Wall mount shelve 300 usd

... comes in at just under 5000 usd total.

Ready to shoot out against any digital.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Analogue v Digital. Let’s forget about the policing of the hyperbole and lets just do another couple of laps of the Möbius strip club. What is best. What is sota analogue or sota digital. What are we listening to, the sound or the music? Surely these are as always just preferences. Nothing is static and no truth universal.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I love analogies for analog v digital, tubes v SS etc
Möbius Loop is one
Hamster Wheel another
Marriage of convenience maybe
Love/hate (w the emphasis on hate)
Etc

 

[howiebrou]

There's no doubt even me as a vinyl lover can see Extreme as the ultimate source since it effectively comes w that Tidal or Qobuz library. As the max bang for yr buck without having to worry about/invest in that vinyl library, it's hard to argue against. If the house burnt down and I had to start again, w Extreme and 0000s of albums on tap, would I still go to the effort and expense of building up an lp collection again? I really don't know. But I do know a stellar sound can be gotten from a £10k analog front end. The Sony DD/SAEC507 12"/Aidas Panzerholz rig I heard at UKPaul's fits this price band, and I can't think of a cdp or server/dac that beats it, at 3x the price.

The Neodio Origine comes close.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I love analogies for analog v digital, tubes v SS etc
Möbius Loop is one
Hamster Wheel another
Marriage of convenience maybe
Love/hate (w the emphasis on hate)
Etc

The problem could actually be the focus on the medium rather than the music. If we’re just constantly always fixing the sound it can become the single great obsession. If we’re constantly listening for flaws we’ll always find them. We all do it. We undo ourselves.

The secret is to saturate yourself in music. So you are deaf to the sound. Listening to the same music regularly reinforces the state of the sound. New music constantly shifts your boundaries and takes you away from the state of your system.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure, at 110dB.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The Neodio Origine comes close.

Love French digital. Have the Eera Tentation, a 100% triumph.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

for the last couple of days i've been doing 192/24 golden age jazz titles, some on Quboz, some files i own. i know this music from my vinyl, mostly 45 reissues, and i'm totally into it. this is the good stuff and my ears and body tell me i'm getting everything from these wonderful pieces of music. some stereo, some mono. excellent transfers. so easy to set up a play list and just sit back.

right now it's 'Jackie McLean," Destination....Out!" on Quboz. delicious.

but i also know just how i would be transported to another dimension of experience, realism, musical touch and flow with the actual 45's on the Saskia.

i don't miss the vinyl at all right now, and could live with this forever.

 

[Skanda]

for the last couple of days i've been doing 192/24 golden age jazz titles, some on Quboz, some files i own. i know this music from my vinyl, mostly 45 reissues, and i'm totally into it. this is the good stuff and my ears and body tell me i'm getting everything from these wonderful pieces of music. some stereo, some mono. excellent transfers. so easy to set up a play list and just sit back.

but i also know just how i would be transported to another dimension of experience and musical touch and flow with the actual 45's on the Saskia.

i don't miss the vinyl at all right now, and could live with this forever.

difficult question, but how much of that do you think is coming from the extreme vs. your previous setup with just the select ii. put it another way, do you think the extreme is getting you to the "i don't miss the vinyl" state or were you already there when listening to digital before?

for me, the importance/impact of the server has been the craziest revelation in audio. that said, i'm at 99% streaming so deff more impactful for me vs. someone else

 

[Mike Lavigne]

difficult question, but how much of that do you think is coming from the extreme vs. your previous setup with just the select ii. put it another way, do you think the extreme is getting you to the "i don't miss the vinyl" state or were you already there when listening to digital before?

for me, the importance/impact of the server has been the craziest revelation in audio. that said, i'm at 99% streaming so deff more impactful for me vs. someone else

combining the addition of the Extreme, with the other network upgrades (1-MSB Pro USB interface, 2-Gobel USB cable, 3-fiber network cable plus all the little details and LPS's) really did kick things over the top in musicality and ease. the music 'arrived'. maybe to the point of not even thinking much about associating the music with the gear any more. it's just music. not digital music.

how big was the jump? i would say it kept pace with my vinyl steps up, which were significant, and if anything i'm even less compelled to play vinyl now, even though it's really amazing. but, of course......once i play the vinyl everything changes and the world outside falls away.

i know that Emile will tap me on the shoulder when the next set of network tweaks reaches a 'need to do it to grab that next serious step up' moment. until then i'm not thinking about it. so the digital is good enough to stop thinking about what it might do more. it's doing it all right now.

 

[Skanda]

a

combining the addition of the Extreme, with the other network upgrades (1-MSB Pro USB interface, 2-Gobel USB cable, 3-fiber network cable plus all the little details and LPS's) really did kick things over the top in musicality and ease. the music 'arrived'. maybe to the point of not even thinking much about associating the music with the gear any more. it's just music. not digital music.

how big was the jump? i would say it kept pace with my vinyl steps up, which were significant, and if anything i'm even less compelled to play vinyl now, even though it's really amazing. but, of course......once i play the vinyl everything changes and the world outside falls away.

i know that Emile will tap me on the shoulder when the next set of network tweaks reaches a 'need to do it to grab that next serious step up' moment. until then i'm not thinking about it. so the digital is good enough to stop thinking about what it might do more. it's doing it all right now.

awesome to hear. if i every go the extreme route or even stay with my current set up, i'll wait till there is more of a consensus on the x,y,z pieces needed pre server for the best results. i'm also a bit outlet constrained so can't finagle a bunch of boxes pre server. as a technical/computer guy, i was deff in the bits-is-bits mindset...but now i'm realizing the digital chain pre server is much like setting up a turntable. it's alot to do but mindboggling that it makes a different and fun as a result of that.

 

[Elliot G.]

a


awesome to hear. if i every go the extreme route or even stay with my current set up, i'll wait till there is more of a consensus on the x,y,z pieces needed pre server for the best results. i'm also a bit outlet constrained so can't finagle a bunch of boxes pre server. as a technical/computer guy, i was deff in the bits-is-bits mindset...but now i'm realizing the digital chain pre server is much like setting up a turntable. it's alot to do but mindboggling that it makes a different and fun as a result of that.

dont forget that perfect is the enemy of great. The search for the Absolute Cheeseburger is a long, endless and many times thankless journey.

 

[Skanda]

dont forget that perfect is the enemy of great. The search for the Absolute Cheeseburger is a long, endless and many times thankless journey.

well said, it's all about balancing trade offs. i think we all dream of the perfect room, perfect power, perfect components etc. however, i'll take less than perfect if that means i can stick a system in my living room and enjoy with friends, family, and during this quarantine

 

[Mike Lavigne]

awesome to hear. if i every go the extreme route or even stay with my current set up, i'll wait till there is more of a consensus on the x,y,z pieces needed pre server for the best results. i'm also a bit outlet constrained so can't finagle a bunch of boxes pre server. as a technical/computer guy, i was deff in the bits-is-bits mindset...but now i'm realizing the digital chain pre server is much like setting up a turntable. it's alot to do but mindboggling that it makes a different and fun as a result of that.

but mostly the pre-server parts are (in the context of high end audio) minor investments........and need to be viewed as flexible pieces as more is learned......and ISP's evolve.

here is my 30 thousand foot viewpoint.

in 1997 i bought the Mark Levinson No. 36s dac and No. 37 transport. then 2 years later i bought the Linn CD-12......it was a big step up. that's 21 years ago. the EMM Labs followed for 5 years, then the Playback Designs for 9 years. then more recently the Trinity, GG, and the Aqua. the last 2 years the Select II and now the Extreme.

i do think digital has arrived at a really great spot; and media delivery (streaming) is a big part.......the Extreme being a key milestone in that. but more modestly priced servers have also gone to a high level. noise in dac chips have changed the game to bit perfect. bandwidth is a relatively trivial issue. and server evolution has left the confines of commonplace computers and become musical tools.

as i sit here listening to Dexter Gordon play so wonderfully on 'It's You or No One' on the 192/24 of 'Doin' Allright' on Quboz and realize i'm so satisfied with what i'm hearing.

 

[Elliot G.]

well said, it's all about balancing trade offs. i think we all dream of the perfect room, perfect power, perfect components etc. however, i'll take less than perfect if that means i can stick a system in my living room and enjoy with friends, family, and during this quarantine

I have not changed any of my digital for quite a while other than go with the new Ethernet Streaming Board in my CH DAC which is a Roon Set up. It works and sounds better than using USB and another item in front of the DAC to make it Roon capable. I store my music on a 10TB Sonic Transporter. I am quite sure that there must be something better since there a zillion that are much costlier ( LOL)
I prefer to spend my time listening since I spent a lot of time getting my speakers positioned PERFECTLY and getting the room and seating position correct for my space. I totally believe that this is the bedrock of a great sounding system. I am not saying that these new tricks, gadgets and updated devices don't matter since they do but only if all the other items are done correctly.
Finding the spot now that's what it is all about ( yes life is about finding the spot LMAO)

 

[Skanda]

I have not changed any of my digital for quite a while other than go with the new Ethernet Streaming Board in my CH DAC which is a Roon Set up. It works and sounds better than using USB and another item in front of the DAC to make it Roon capable. I store my music on a 10TB Sonic Transporter. I am quite sure that there must be something better since there a zillion that are much costlier ( LOL)
I prefer to spend my time listening since I spent a lot of time getting my speakers positioned PERFECTLY and getting the room and seating position correct for my space. I totally believe that this is the bedrock of a great sounding system. I am not saying that these new tricks, gadgets and updated devices don't matter since they do but only if all the other items are done correctly.
Finding the spot now that's what it is all about ( yes life is about finding the spot LMAO)

well you have a tremendous dac there and tremendous system all around. that said, if you feel the itch to mess around, a server is worth a try

 

[Elliot G.]

well you have a tremendous dac there and tremendous system all around. that said, if you feel the itch to mess around, a server is worth a try

i don't doubt that. Perhaps once we figure out the new normal and people can purchase our new speakers I will invest in a new toy. for now the sound here is pretty damn good. Our latest product arrives this week, I hope if the virus doesnt mess up customs and freight, and I will have something wonderful to unpack, set up and make videos about. THe camera and lights etc. was the latest investment.

 

[jeff1225]

Jeff, will you be bringing that vinyl front end? My SME can’t compete with what you’re describing. I’m not sure my Boston Audio buddies even like the recent changes to my system. Perhaps you should just take your rig to Al’s house.

The other option would be to take Al’s digital front end over to Romy the cats place but I don’t know if Romy allows digital in his house

@Al M. just send me your address and I'll ship my 450 lb Ascona on a pallet....

In all reality, I would love to test Al's digital on your system Peter. I used to listen to a lot of digital when I lived in Seattle, had a small place and had the Ayre QB-9 DAC.