Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

I don't know Al, show me where was this crime committed. So now people can't discuss a product that they like in a dedicated thread without getting trolled?

david

Come on David. If you and others had not made outrageous claims about this being the best without sufficient evidence, nobody would have disturbed your thread about your favorite arm.

You know that, so please don't try to be evasive about it.

 

My language and tone is geared and directed to you two no one else.

david

Understood. The point is that you show a character that comes across as simply filthy, if not downright fascist, trolling around making political innuendos on top of all the other crap that was said.

 

Come on David. If you and others had not made outrageous claims about this being the best without sufficient evidence, nobody would have disturbed your thread about your favorite arm.

You know that, so please don't try to be evasive about it.

+1

 

Come on David. If you and others had not made outrageous claims about this being the best without sufficient evidence, nobody would have disturbed your thread about your favorite arm.

You know that, so please don't try to be evasive about it.

The three of you put together have less experience and knowledge on this subject than any single person on this thread but you want to tell everyone else what they can or can't say. How does that work?

 

trolling around making political innuendos on top of everything else.

O.k. that has been taken care of by the moderators, no need to dwell on it.

 

Understood. The point is that you show a character that comes across as simply filthy, if not downright fascist, trolling around making political innuendos on top of everything else.

You and your bud make snide remarks and snicker like a couple of hyenas, I don't play your childish games and tell it straight to your face what I think of you. We wouldn't be here if you hadn't started with my friend.

david

 

The three of you put together have less experience and knowledge on this subject than any single person on this thread but you want to tell everyone else what they can or can't say. How does that work?

That's funny. Ack with his extensive turntable and arm modifications having less experience than some other members here, or even any single person on this thread? David having less experience than some other members here even though he did own a 3012R arm? And who has experience directly comparing the 3012R with the V-12 arm? Nobody.

 

Sorry, meant "Davey" not "David" in my last post (can't edit on my phone without deleting the post).

 

Come on David. If you and others had not made outrageous claims about this being the best without sufficient evidence, nobody would have disturbed your thread about your favorite arm.

You know that, so please don't try to be evasive about it.

I knew that this is all personal, this isn't my thread! Sufficient evidence of what? You should write to SME because "The Best Tonearm in the World" is their claim since the 50's with 3012 series 1. There's nothing to be evasive about, what does this thread have anything to do with SME's other arms and the only one with questions about the V12 is Peter A and he's been respected and replied to, so where's the beef?

david

 

Come on David. If you and others had not made outrageous claims about this being the best without sufficient evidence, nobody would have disturbed your thread about your favorite arm.

You know that, so please don't try to be evasive about it.

What outrageous claims ? That the 3012R is one of the all time great arms ? What evidence would suffice ?
That a lot off people with different TT and subjectively good systems agreeing maybe.
Some of these people own and use the most expensive “tour the force” arms and still favor “the old warhorse”.
Yes ddk is an absolutist,but has the experience to back up his claims. And don’t forget everything in this hobby is a matter of taste in the end !

 

That's funny. Ack with his extensive turntable and arm modifications having less experience than some other members here, or even any single person on this thread? David having less experience than some other members here even though he did own a 3012R arm? And who has experience directly comparing the 3012R with the V-12 arm? Nobody.

One tt, one tonearm, a couple of magnets and lots of foil you better ask ack before leading me down that path ! And we know the lump sum of Davey's expertise, he moved on. What does the V12 or any other tonearm has to do with you guys running interference in this thread?

david

 

What outrageous claims ? That the 3012R is one of the all time great arms ?

That would have been no problem. But it went beyond that, claiming that it's the best ever made by SME, without sufficient evidence.

Yes ddk is an absolutist,but has the experience to back up his claims.

Not the experience of comparing 3012R with V-12 side by side.

And don’t forget everything in this hobby is a matter of taste in the end !

Here we agree.

 

It would count if you even had an inkling how to use it but as it stands from your comments, you were and still are clueless!

david

Clueless... ??

Do you understand the term ad hominem attack...
I doubt it, way above your pay grade...oops...that's an ad hominem....

 

Business enterprises have to pump out new products when the old ones reach maturity or die out. I am sure SME uses their best engineering resources available to design their new products, new arms. However it would be naive to think that they produce the new arms just because they think they can make a better sounding arm. The main objective of a large established company to introduce a new product is to make money...period. One thing for sure their main objective is certainly different from ours. Very often new product with newer technologies and space age materials are better than old ones. But sometime they are just new products, not necessarily better than previous ones. You put two engineers of different era together I am sure each would favor the sound of his own design. I am not saying the new SME arms are inferior to the 3012R. I haven’t heard any of them beside the 3012R. But I am saying the logic that more advance technology will likely beat out the old one is not absolute. And an opinion of the engineer, the designer is as good as a data point that other users have commented in this thread because all of them are obviously biased one way or another.

For me I find the 3012R gives me great pleasure and enjoyment listening to music as much if not more than my other arms. I like to compare gears just like Bonzo (sometime I even think he enjoys comparing experiences more than listening experiences.) Look at those gears I bought senselessly. They were results of my curiosity. I learned a lot from them. Until now I am not really much interested in knowing or able to write specifically how 3012R differs in sound to SAT or Axiom. I just hear really good sound, enjoy it and not listening analytically. I better leave the job to Bonzo to compare when he visited me. He can say which one has more drive and more “flow” whatever that means...hehe .

Last but not least. If fanboys don’t mean anything sexually, then yes I am ddk’s fanboy...also Gian’s fanboy, MikeL’s fanboy, Christian’s fanboy, Ron’s fanboy, Shane’s fanboy and a few others.

Kind regards,
Tang

Tang, David may know more about why the 3012R was discontinued. I think he was an SME dealer at the time. SME started out as the Scale Model Equipment company. It was founded by Alastair Robertson-Aikman (ARA), an audiophile and music lover, particularly of opera. His listening room was legendary. He was great friends with the head archivist at the Vienna State Opera and gave him a Model 30/12 for his 60th birthday. Many of the musicians in the Vienna Philharmonic have SME tables and arms. ARA ran a successful business, but I think his passion was music. I'm not sure that his main objective was "certainly different from ours".

ARA wanted a new tonearm for his own use, one that was better than what was then available. His engineers designed one, ARA and his music friends thought it sounded great, and it was developed into a commercial product. The rest is history. I presume SME wants to make money. However, with an audiophile at the helm, and other, non-audio customers providing the business with steady income, it is not clear to me that one can conclude that the newer V arm and its descendants were developed just to increase profits. I don't understand how this idea got started. Is it not also possible that SME wanted to meet a new demand in the market and improve their current products? The older arms were selling very well. I think in part that the new arms were a response to the newer moving coil cartridges, and David said something about the new, lighter, suspended turntables which were becoming popular having an influence on the design of these arms.

Remember too that the 3012R and V arms were sold concurrently, at least for a short while. It is possible that at least some of their engineers were not of "different eras". There was an overlap between the arms. I don't know if one or more of the engineers were involved with both arms or not, but without knowing the details, I think we should refrain from some of these assumptions.

I am curious. Have you no interest in hearing the V-12 arm in your system? You own many arms and duplicates, and you seem to want variety of sound and enjoy comparisons. Now that you own a 3012R and are aware of SME, are you not at least a little bit curious about how their current flagship arm would sound in your system? I get that you and the others who own the 3012R like it a lot. But for some reason, no one seems even interested in trying the new SME arm in one of these excellent systems on a non SME turntable. Perhaps everyone has heard that David does not like the V arm. However, relative to some of the other $12K-$30K arms out there, the V and V-12 are relative bargains. Many early photos of the AF1 and the Kronos even show V-12 arms mounted on them. The new TechDAS V table has two V arms mounted on it for the publicity photo.

Someone suggested in this thread that much of the V arm is about marketing. The box does indeed have the rather bold statement: "The best pick up arm in the world." It seems to me that their marketing is not so great because the new arms seem to be dismissed and not even considered by the very high end audiophiles. With the exception of a few vintage arm designs, this subset of our hobby seems to focus on more expensive tone arms and SME is no longer one of the really expensive arms. SME does not advertise much in the US, and yet there top tables are backordered, so there seems to be a lot of demand. Perhaps there is just no buzz about the brand. In typical British fashion, the company is understated. They sell a lot of product, so they don't advertise much. One thing is for sure. SME is not a couple of guys in a garage selling a few products a year.

 

That's funny. Ack with his extensive turntable and arm modifications having less experience than some other members here, or even any single person on this thread? David having less experience than some other members here even though he did own a 3012R arm? And who has experience directly comparing the 3012R with the V-12 arm? Nobody.

Hello, “nobody” here...

I have experience with these SME tonearms, both the 3012r and the V-12 (Kondo version) they are both wonderful performers...you can either make your choice for one, or have both. Either way, I think that you could/can be happy.

Cheers!
ALF

 

Respect ! Well said Tang. And next time you say you speak basic English, i’m calling you on that ****.

Thank you sir. Have some Danish pastries, a cup of coffee, and a great day sir.



Peace,
Tang

 

One tt, one tonearm, a couple of magnets and lots of foil you better ask ack before leading me down that path ! And we know the lump sum of Davey's expertise, he moved on. What does the V12 or any other tonearm has to do with you guys running interference in this thread?

david

Experience, you are right..KING David--you are the ONLY one with ANY experience on this forum...keep on believing that buddy.

Yes, I moved on from the old war horse..I mean my beloved SME 3012R...is there anything wrong with that?? Could it be that I heard something that was far far better sounding..to my ears! Not possible right, David??
Must have been something I did wrong in the set up, or maybe my system just wasn't up to getting the best out of the old war horse, LOL... Pick one David!!! BTW, who's calling who a moron!!

 

The puerility displayed in this thread is startling. It resembles a kindergarten spat about whose father is the strongest. This silliness is surely an outflow from the name of this forum. Why on earth should something be the best of anything ?

How boring life would be if we all just drank the same best wine or used the same best toilet paper.

If one likes smaller precisely drawn pictures of dynamically constrained tightly controlled smaller systems ,you will need a source that is ostensibly less coloured and appears more dynamic sounding. If on the other hand you like your music large and free with bold impressionistic strokes that may not be as tonally accurate your source may well be allowed to sacrifice some tightness and faux dynamics in exchange for a freer (more natural?) sound.

I would be very surprised if someone who likes the 3012 would get along with the V and its derivatives just as I would be surprised if a lover of the SME tables gets along with a broadcast idler. Surprisingly there are even people,like me,who dislike both the 3012 and the V albeit for different reasons.

There is no What’s Best of anything. There seems to be a What’s Best hobby though where the practitioners of such travel the world,partaking in endless “shoot outs” in their futile pursuit. Audio Components are only a casual choice in such duels with any of these participants equally happy to swap their weapon of choice for wines,cars, rifles ,horses or whatever.

 

Experience, you are right..KING David--you are the ONLY one with ANY experience on this forum...keep on believing that buddy.

This is what you got Davey? This takes the wisdom you've brought to this thread to the next level, BRAVO! You said it many time you moved on so what are you still trolling around here for? At least keep this part of the thread honest, we're not buddies.

david

 

The puerility displayed in this thread is startling. It resembles a kindergarten spat about whos father is the strongest. This silliness is surely an outflow from the name of this forum. Why on earth should something be the best of anything ?

How boring life would be if we all just drank the same best wine or used the same best toilet paper.

If one likes smaller precisely drawn pictures of dynamically constrained tightly controlled smaller systems ,you will need a source that is ostensibly less coloured and appears more dynamic sounding. If on the other hand you like your music large and free with bold impressionistic strokes that may not be as tonally accurate your source may well be allowed to sacrifice some tightness and faux dynamics in exchange for a freer (more natural?) sound.

I would be very surprised if someone who likes the 3012 would get along with the V and its derivatives just as I would be surprised if a lover of the SME tables gets along with a broadcast idler. Surprisingly there are even people,like me,who dislike both the 3012 and the V albeit for different reasons.

There is no What’s Best of anything. There seems to be a What’s Best hobby though where the practitioners of such travel the world,partaking in endless “shoot outs” in their futile pursuit. Audio Components are only a casual choice in such duels with any of these participants equally happy to swap their weapon of choice for wines,cars, rifles ,horses or whatever.

+1

Nothing is perfect and indeed--this is what's BEST forum.