2xDSD - Smoke and mirrors, or will there appear better masterings on it?

Isn't it obvious to you that the designer thought about that appreciable noise modulation, and took steps to make sure that it doesn't happen?

No - ironically quite the opposite. If the designer had listened to some of the gurus in the field (Dan Lavry is one name that springs to mind, impeccable credentials technically) he'd realize that going so high in output sample rate brings serious drawbacks in performance terms. I suspect he was seduced by his own marketing department that 'faster = better' :p

http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-white-paper-the_optimal_sample_rate_for_quality_audio.pdf
 
Faster IS better, most of the time.
My problem with digital (Redbook, at least) is that it's not "fast" enough to trick the ear/brain into thinking it's real. Of course, that, and the predominance of lousy recording/mastering work...
Now I'm sure you're going to argue, and present a number of white papers, claiming 44.1 is "fast enough", but to my layman's ears, it's not.


alexandre
 
All of this digital mudslinging is kind of funny.

Its certainly funny from where I'm standing - funny in the sense of a whole barrel of fun :cool:

Opus, maybe you are really on to something with your NOS DACs that you design, build, or modify from other OEMs. I was always led to believe that NOS DACs had the worst technical performance with regards to the almighty specifications that people who love specifications love.

Indeed they do - traditionally. I find when two of the most important are fixed up - the FR droop and the imaging frequencies, it only makes them sound better still. So a case where the objectivists and the subjectivists were both right in their own ways. The objectivists for complaining that the traditional drawbacks need to be addressed (they do indeed) and the subjectivists for saying how great they sounded anyway ( which of course they did).:) But the traditional suite of measurements is one short of a full-house - it hasn't to date included noise modulation, the absence of which being the reason why NOS DACs sounded so superior (and more analog-like).

Maybe I really need to get my hands on one of those souped up sub-$200 NOS that has been hotrodded to get rid of the NOS droop you are always talking about and then the digital angels would come singing in my ears.

Indeed that would be my conjecture - which is why I have embarked on the project in the 'Frugal Audiophile' section of WBF. To bring those singing angels to the eardrums of more audio freaks like myself :D
 
Now I'm sure you're going to argue, and present a number of white papers, claiming 44.1 is "fast enough", but to my layman's ears, it's not.

No arguments, I'm done with the papers this time around. Just do the experiment for yourself - expose those layman's ears to the right kind of DAC. Listen, and you'll see.
 
There are lots of releases coming i 2013/2014 recorded the very good way.
Availability will be in several formats, also in the formats mentioned.

Seeing as you are from Sweden I suspect you are well aware of this?
Eller tar jeg feil når jeg anntar du kjenner til opptaks scenen i norden? Skulle tro dette var meget godt kjent hos oss nordboere? (writing in nordic... )

No, I'm not. I just got Amanda Jensen's latest, and it's the worst produced one yet, so I'm not really seeing any improvement.

In popular/rock/electronic music? I'm not that particularly into classic/jazz/blues. I want good recorded charts music.
 
And these good results can only be "measured" by one instrument, the ear.

You can measure far below the hearing threshold. If your measurements don't show what you're expecting them to, it's not because it can't be measured - it's because you're measuring the wrong way/thing.
 
Right, firstly, you can master DSD directly, say with Merging technologies Pyramix gear.. and Sony, of course, has a platform for it!
So lettuce not start saying that one cannot do this!!!

Imperial.

Thanks, I am not used to professional standards. But I could read that " Pyramix also supports the DXD format which is growing in popularity as a high-resolution stepping stone for DSD production, with linear PCM files running with 32-bit resolution and a 352.8kHz sample rate." Why the "stepping stone"? I think it was Bruce who also referred to it in a previous post in this forum.
 
No, I'm not. I just got Amanda Jensen's latest, and it's the worst produced one yet, so I'm not really seeing any improvement.

In popular/rock/electronic music? I'm not that particularly into classic/jazz/blues. I want good recorded charts music.

Hehe, you'll have no complaint from me on the latter (I'd rather listen to "Timoteij" myself, If I had to..), but that I guess was no surprise.. not wanting to "Idolise" classical/Jazz over main stream music, of course..

Anyway, a rather informative article you could read: http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-v-pcm-file-comparison-16441-2496-24192-64x-dsd-128x-dsd

Imperial.
 
No, I'm not. I just got Amanda Jensen's latest, and it's the worst produced one yet, so I'm not really seeing any improvement.

In popular/rock/electronic music? I'm not that particularly into classic/jazz/blues. I want good recorded charts music.

Well ... don't hold your breath. Charts music as its name implies is about what the most people like and the most seem to like what they hear ...

======

I am interested in that discussion of DSD vs PCM. I must say I have my doubts about NOS again based on what I learned in grad school about digital. The few implementation of NOS I have heard among them an Audio Note DAC did little to convince me. I haven't heard them all. Otoh people on this forum who have heard several DAC seem to be convinced that the better NOS are special. Many here rave about the Zanden (Looydelee for exemple), a sentiment echoed by a friend who is fervent about digital, enough to be moving toward different DACs for different sampling rate, the Zanden he says will be when he acquires it the RBCD DAC. So I am interested. I am not sure I have all the DIY chops to follow and implement what opus has posted here, in fact I need to go back to his thread to fully digest it.
DSD is another case where my understanding of digital again from Grad School tells me it is far from the most transparent process. Yet people are maintaining it sounds better than PCM, not universally but many. So a discussion from informed people is most welcome.

As for DIY let's not reject it because it doesn't fit our idea of High End. Most of our believed high designs likely began in a garage. Wilson Audio started this way, just to remind you. Anyone who has seen the WHAM will tell you how Rube-Godlbergresque it looked, far from the sophisticated look of present Wilson products. So please tone down the condescension. Digital processing is readily available and it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg.
Lastly that idea that PCM doesn't have enough sample to fool our ears should be put to rest. The stairways you see on many graphs trying to explain how the process works are just that:pictures. The reality of Analog to Digital processes is much different. As a parting shot: I have seen my share of people fooled by RBCD digital when they thought they were listening to Vinyl.


On a sad note those views about NOS had me remembering a fellow WBFer a proponent of NOS with whom I debated/disagreed often: Muralman1. RIP Bro.
 
You can measure far below the hearing threshold. If your measurements don't show what you're expecting them to, it's not because it can't be measured - it's because you're measuring the wrong way/thing.

+1
 
Well ... don't hold your breath. Charts music as its name implies is about what the most people like and the most seem to like what they hear ...

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the new EBU radio standard will get some attention from the music industry. That the most compression will no longer be the most impressive to hear on radio, but songs with more dynamics will outshine them.

But pull your straw... Mail the company when you get a bad master... send the CD back and ask for a non-broken one in return... etc.
 
That article cites our very own BruceB who he says has recently acquired a NOS DAC ;) I'd say the comparison between RBCD and DSD was flawed by the use of the Mytek which pumps everything through an ESS S-D chip with attendant noise modulation.

The Mytec is very popular in Norway these days, selling like mad (also on the account of the DSD ability, no doubt). (there are some Lampizator fans there also, That is what Mr BruceB has? Is it? )
What other D/A should one rather choose, in your opinion then?

Imperial.
 
Well obviously the one I'm working on now - but its still vapourware :D I'm designing it because I see there's a big gap in the market for an affordable NOS design which fixes up the basic NOS issues without introducing other drawbacks. But its strictly RBCD only.

As for what's currently available, perhaps Metrum Octave, though this still has the droop and imaging probs. This can be used at 96k to give some relief from droop, though not from imaging. Or the DAC-AH, which has similar issues but is considerably cheaper. I see the mainstream market still very much in love with hi-res formats, or at the least wanting not to deny themselves that possibility in future, so my design is rather niche for now.
 
Thanks...

There are people in the recording industry that see eye to eye with what Opus111 does imply is part of a bigger truth...

Say 2L - The nordic Sound, Lindberg Lyd AS, http://www.2l.no/ and such.
This company has become somewhat of a superb addition to the high-end community, delivering recording quality at a very very high level.

Excerpt form their main site:
"Digital reproduction of analogue sound

At venue recording sessions our analogue to digital converters can do both the one-bit DSD and the multi-bit PCM formats. We can also listen directly to the analogue output from the microphones. Digital eXtreme Definition is a professional audio format that brings “analogue” qualities in 24 bit at 352.8 kHz sampling rate. DXD preserves 8.4672 Mbit/s (3 times the data of DSD) per channel. This leaves headroom for editing and balancing before quantizing to DSD for SACD or PCM for Blu-Ray.
All audio formats on The Nordic Sound are sample rate converted from the same DXD master. Comparing them in our studio we find only subtle differences from DXD down to 192kHz and 96kHz. The obvious degeneration is from 96kHz down to 48kHz. We find DSD, as used in the SACD format, somewhat different in colour from PCM; in some mysterious way DSD is softer and more beautiful but slightly less detailed. In DXD we find the shimmering brilliance from the original analogue source as directly from the microphones. Linear PCM is offered in addition to DTS HD Master Audio on this Blu-ray with the purpose of convincing audiophiles of the true lossless qualities of commercial encoding. The stereo layer of the SACD and the LPCM 2.0-stream on the Blu-ray are both full resolution mix from the original microphones. Mostly we find that the microphone placements used for the surround make a fine stereo. Occasionally we put up extra microphones dedicated for the stereo stream.
I personally prefer extremely high resolution PCM over the DSD and I would claim that DSD is not transparent. But it all comes down to what the sound from your speakers can do to your body and mind. I find that the placement of microphones has an infinite more important role in the final experience of music, than the difference between HiRes PCM and DSD. Sometimes a lie can be more beautiful than the truth!"

Interesting indeed, and still catering to all needs, the listener is left to make up their mind.

Worthwhile mention I think, as one can get a file in a variety of formats for comparative listening.


Imperial.

for posting this information, Imperial :)
I've seen "2L" referenced in other posts, but haven't researched it as of yet.
 
One of our problems is that the ear/brain is a fantastic decoding engine, and we can pull intelligence out of a signal that is of only 4 bit depth. This was found to be the reality when digitization of telephony was being considered. that the experiments in bit depth reduction had us humans being able to make words out well enough, to understand the words, with only 4 bits of depth.

Of course, nuance went by the wayside in that experiment; words were decodable but who and what nuance and inflection ....was not going to be possible.

Our problem is that we are oriented toward decoding complex signals in order to ascertain the intelligence in them.

That we have, in our minds, for the purposes of decoding human language, a set or library of beginning sounds for words. That when we hear the start of words, we bring out a list of the correct starts and then move into curve fitting to the origin and beginning aspects of the given sound. as the sound completes and the word is formed we then lay it down solidly in context and move to the next word.

That we only use the leading edge of transients and the micro transients, in different frequency bands..within the scope of this internal 'flowing word formation trick.'

And that we do the same for music.

That we have cilia in the ear that can decode the singular 20khz notes or single frequencies.

when it comes to complex harmonic structures, that multiple, multiple cilia are involved, with micro timing differentials between them. That these cilia are anchored in a 3d matrix or odd shaped 'sack like' ball in the ear. That this sack is motionally activated in 3 different axis with wave flow in the structure and the surface, much like multiple vibrations originating on the surface of an within the fluid in a water balloon.

water_balloon_20.jpg

Imagine all those cilia or hairs inserted in this 'fluid sack' in 3d or an XYZ pattern. And that the motion of the ball in the xyz form, is going to be uneven and all kinds of resonance and flow patterns will emerge/occur in the flow/vibration....and the cilia will be activated via these complex and evolving motional patterns ...to send signals to the aural nerve complexes and to the brain.... to decode and blend them at micro speed differentials that are FAR beyond and WELL above a lousy little 20khz. Thus each ear has a 3d xyz complex of decoding, with micro differentials in timing and level, for large numbers of cilia, at the same time. (we use the leading edge positive transient values, for the most part, and internally reconstruct/guesstimate from that)

Not just some singular and poorly conceived and executed comparison that is used in the world of audio engineering. The ear, as a complex system...is so far from that simplistic audio engineering and linear weighting idea... that it is almost staggering, when one understands how far apart and opposite the directions are.

The ear/brain....simplifies the data rates by concentrating, for the larger part, on ONLY the leading edge transient values and timing differentials for all the cilia and we reconstruct the overall shape in the mind, or decoding engine. It cuts the data rates, in liner weighted terms, by about 90%. The ear only utilizes micro differentials in multiple frequencies and in the context of this fluid sack's vibrational xyz patterns, over time.

thus, if DSD or digital amplifiers , as designed by engineers, with their simplistic weighting, get all the micro detail wrong ...as they consider it to be the least important part..well..they've got it exactly backward.

that the ear brain complex is interested in ONLY the most micro-change components in relation to one another. That it does not use the rest and that it also, due to it's reconstruction techniques and decoding techniques, it can and does insert 'masking' via the act of 'fill in' (like the hearing of words), based on previous experience (internal library of curve fit sounds).

The open minded audiophile is looking for (and literally hearing) sound they've never heard before, like when learning a new language. This is the part of the mind that is used by the constantly evolving audiophile, who has learned how to attach this particular learning method we all have, they have learned to attach it to their audio listening, and to their enjoyment of audio. that they try to learn a new language, or hear given sounds for the first time, like that of a child learning to hear. whereas the audio naysayers, use their already existing set of library of sounds, to project into what they hear. that they indulge less into the learning of new, and more into the projection of old patterns of known - over new data that is slightly different.

In this case, the comparison is direct and valid, with regard to mental orientation and wiring.
 
Last edited:
No arguments, I'm done with the papers this time around. Just do the experiment for yourself - expose those layman's ears to the right kind of DAC. Listen, and you'll see.

Sure, help me try something different then! I'm not averse to trying different things, that's how I ended up with the MSB after years of owning dCS...
What do you recommend, as a "right kind of DAC"? Give me a list and I'll do my best to procure them.


alexandre
 
It rather depends on your price budget - given that you've owned dCS then I'd guess price won't be any kind of problem, so check out the top-of-the-range implementation in AMR's CD-77. Its one of the best implementations of TDA1541A I'm aware of, but still has the imaging issues on NOS though the droop has been fixed up on 'Direct Master II' setting. Slightly lower down the price scale, the Audial Model S. The AMR's a CD player but has USB digital input too as standard with S/PDIF optional.
 
No - ironically quite the opposite. If the designer had listened to some of the gurus in the field (Dan Lavry is one name that springs to mind, impeccable credentials technically) he'd realize that going so high in output sample rate brings serious drawbacks in performance terms.

Lavry himself stated in the article you linked to said 44.1 isn't high enough, so RBCD is flawed from the start according to his impecable credentials.

We use the same exact workstation and converters that Morten at 2L uses and I still say DSD sounds better to us. We did Winston's FIM albums in DXD.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing