What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[DasguteOhr]

I always thought the Avantarde Duo was good, but I would never judge it at a hi-fi trade fair. There are two reasons for this: first, there are people who don't put any effort into setting up their speakers. Second, those who do put in the effort at least don't have enough time to make it perfect. That's why it's bad to judge them there, in my opinion.

P.S
Interestingly, it was always small companies without big names that sounded particularly good. Perhaps to increase their brand awareness.

 

[Kozak170]

I am not referring to choosing in a price range, but that there are many sub 10k speakers better than the duos. Unless one wants the comfort of “I have spent more so should be better”, and the comfort of buying Trio’s sibling.

I said that because you might hear and be sensitive to the DSP in the 170 Hz and 290 Hz range (uno, duo), but in the Trio and Colibri models, the DSP kicks in around 100 Hz and below. The Colibri, without an added subwoofer, goes down to 65 Hz in passive mode. I just realized that you haven't heard the new Duo series, so if you experience them, this perception might change.

That 2 ohm impedance at 100 hz in the upper bass is a nightmare though. The TAD is easier to drive.

Yes, you're right, but what I meant was more of a comparison of the phase and impedance response between the two speakers and their relationship with driver time alignment and crossover. Wilson uses a 3rd-order crossover, which is relatively gentler, combined with physical driver time alignment, helping to maintain a more controlled phase response, fewer impedance fluctuations, and a smoother transition between drivers. TAD, with its 4th-order crossover, results in greater phase shifts, potential phase anomalies, and larger impedance fluctuations, compounded by the lack of time alignment between the drivers, making the crossover points less smooth.

Interestingly, it was always small companies without big names that sounded particularly good. Perhaps to increase their brand awareness.

Exactly, big companies with well-known names usually focus more on marketing and advertising than on producing great sound. That’s why their names become widely recognized, and due to their financial backing, their products often end up being labeled as the 'Product of the Year'.

 

[gleeds]

They certainly look distinctive. After having a less than optimal experience with a solid cocobola turntable, I've become wary of audio products made of wood holding up over time.

View attachment 157294

Odeon has been on the scene for a long time, so I expect they are aware of potential issues that could compromise its longevity. Legitimate to bring up, of course, but likely not a concern.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...too obvious?

 

[Bloomie]

Wowzers!! Itzhak is making horn speakers now? That is something. Reckon one can't play the fiddle all one's life.
Good on him. Mazal Tov!!!

 

[Amir]

Yes, you only understand the concept of dynamics, right? By placing TAD in the Horn league, lol. Those who had TAD and switched to horns like AG have realized what dynamics and liveliness truly mean. Your opinions are only beneficial to you and to increasing Pioneer’s profits, not to anything else.

Please let me know what dynamic means?
This is a simple question and you should answer.

Speakers with low efficiency, complex crossovers, difficult impedance loading, and over-damped cabinets, even with good AC power and no ground noise, do not produce a lively sound or an overall good sound at low volumes because they lack the ability to properly move the air and deliver natural dynamics at lower levels. The design compromises, such as excessive damping and challenging impedance, limit their ability to maintain coherence and energy, resulting in a flat, lifeless sound at reduced volumes.

These theories are good for you, In real world I listen to different speakers and I believe TAD R1 is very good at both low and high volumes.

I prefer a sound that is soulful and tactile, one that gives you the feeling of being there, over a lifeless, analytical speaker that only delivers an impressive studio sound. If someone values more bass extension with DeVore, this can be achieved by adding subs, which is what Jim Smith did by adding REL subs to Tannoy/Fyne Audio two-way speakers. This improved both bass extension and spatiality, giving more depth to the sound. However, the issue of lifeless and analytical speakers that are ultra-neutral and only impress the listener, turning them into an analyst rather than someone who connects emotionally with the music, cannot be solved by anything. You just need to be careful not to fall into the trap of the "wow" factor created during the first listening session.

adding subwoofer is not about more bass extension, you should learn and experience more about effects of subwoofer on sound.

Yes, these theories are good for those who want to avoid the deceptive, high-tech speakers you mentioned and, instead of listening to overpriced, market-pleasing devices, directly connect to the music on a simpler path.

TAD is not expensive in comparison by other flagship speakers.

TAD has such a significant impedance spike that it goes off the graph! A speaker that focused a bit more on driver matching rather than marketing wouldn’t have such poor impedance and phase response. In comparison, the phase response of the Wilson Alexia V is more controlled and flatter than the TAD, which exhibits more extreme phase shifts, suggesting less than ideal driver matching or integration.

View attachment 157138
View attachment 157139

LOL, is the papyrus fiber, which comes from the stem of the Egyptian reed, plastic?! Maybe they've been injecting microplastics into these reeds recently, and we didn't know about it! It's like saying fast food made from processed ingredients is more organic than plant-based food.

These are not impedance of TAD R1, you shared the stereophile measurements of CE1 model not R1.

Learn to speak upon your real experience not non-sense theories.

 

[Amir]

I said that because you might hear and be sensitive to the DSP in the 170 Hz and 290 Hz range (uno, duo), but in the Trio and Colibri models, the DSP kicks in around 100 Hz and below. The Colibri, without an added subwoofer, goes down to 65 Hz in passive mode. I just realized that you haven't heard the new Duo series, so if you experience them, this perception might change.

Yes, you're right, but what I meant was more of a comparison of the phase and impedance response between the two speakers and their relationship with driver time alignment and crossover. Wilson uses a 3rd-order crossover, which is relatively gentler, combined with physical driver time alignment, helping to maintain a more controlled phase response, fewer impedance fluctuations, and a smoother transition between drivers. TAD, with its 4th-order crossover, results in greater phase shifts, potential phase anomalies, and larger impedance fluctuations, compounded by the lack of time alignment between the drivers, making the crossover points less smooth.

Exactly, big companies with well-known names usually focus more on marketing and advertising than on producing great sound. That’s why their names become widely recognized, and due to their financial backing, their products often end up being labeled as the 'Product of the Year'.

It is funny you even do not know TAD driver is coaxial and try to speak about time and phase of TAD.

Do you know what is meaning of those measurements when you listen to those speakers? You do not know!

Please let me know what is relation of “dynamics” and stereophile measurements?

If those measurements say the whole story why you like high distortion systems like tube/devore ?

I think you are 100% confused

 

[DasguteOhr]

These aren't too bad......

Really nice horns,fostex t 900 and radian 700series?

 

[bonzo75]

I always thought the Avantarde Duo was good, but I would never judge it at a hi-fi trade fair.

You should tell this to Brad, who has that as a modus operandi. I have heard it at AG factory and at 4 private owners, including with digital, analog and tape, AG amps, 45, 300b, and Ayon 30w 300b.

 

[DasguteOhr]

You should tell this to Brad, who has that as a modus operandi. I have heard it at AG factory and at 4 private owners, including with digital, analog and tape, AG amps, 45, 300b, and Ayon 30w 300b.

You see, our opinions differ again. I didn't find them particularly harmonious with tube amps. Small Class A amps 20-30watt are a better fit for intern bass amps in my opinion. It just sounds more homogenous, in my opinion.

 

[morricab]

Mr. Jazz, those are beautiful horns!

Another product I have great respect for is Blumenhoffer. My experience lies mainly with their Genuin series, especially the FS2 with AINiCo driver, which are modestly priced and sound sublime when connected to 300B amplifiers. I am keen to try them with our Trafomatic Rhapsody 300B, using 300B mesh tubes, which produce 17 watts/channel from dual 300 B tubes. I have not yet heard their larger models, but they do reach far up the line in the world of horns, and, of course, I always remain a fan of Sam Wisnewski's brilliant Nika horns.

Genuin FS 2 MK 2 | Blumenhofer Acoustics

www.blumenhofer-acoustics.com

So far, I have preferred the sound of Odeon over the Blumenhofer offerings. Several of my audio buddies here in Switzerland (including myself) have Odeons.

 

[morricab]

It is funny you even do not know TAD driver is coaxial and try to speak about time and phase of TAD.

Do you know what is meaning of those measurements when you listen to those speakers? You do not know!

Please let me know what is relation of “dynamics” and stereophile measurements?

If those measurements say the whole story why you like high distortion systems like tube/devore ?

I think you are 100% confused

If TAD is not using a first order filter between the coax mid/tweeter then it might be spatially aligned but the phase shift and group delay will mean that the drivers are not time aligned. You won't see dynamics in Stereophile measurements. Static measurements will not reveal the issues. Given the relatively low sensitivity of the speaker and impedance it will suffer from thermal compression issues at normal listening levels, which will likely compress dynamics compared to a high sensitivity, higher impedance speaker. It's all about voice coil heating...

 

[morricab]

You should tell this to Brad, who has that as a modus operandi. I have heard it at AG factory and at 4 private owners, including with digital, analog and tape, AG amps, 45, 300b, and Ayon 30w 300b.

Stop spreading false information! That is not my modus operandi. I have heard the speaker in different iterations at least 10 times at shows, dealers and private owners, even fully active with 300b/2A3 amps on mid/tweeter. You don't know of what you speak and yet you spread falsehoods left and right...time to stop and get your facts straight.

 

[morricab]

You see, our opinions differ again. I didn't find them particularly harmonious with tube amps. Small Class A amps 20-30watt are a better fit for intern bass amps in my opinion. It just sounds more homogenous, in my opinion.
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Having heard the latest Itron versions a couple of times, I am finding that sound is too explicit and dry. The best sound I heard with the newest ones was with a 300b amp. The best I have heard Duos is with Thomas Mayer 211s and Audiopax monos. Surprisingly, a modest Octave V40 integrated sounded very good with a well setup pair of Duo XDs. I have also heard Duo XDs sound horrible with their own external amps (pre Itron) , where it was terribly forward and aggressive.

 

[bonzo75]

You see, our opinions differ again. I didn't find them particularly harmonious with tube amps. Small Class A amps 20-30watt are a better fit for intern bass amps in my opinion. It just sounds more homogenous, in my opinion.

I did not give an opinion on tube amps. i said I heard them with tube amps and also AG amps.

 

[Legolas]

You should tell this to Brad, who has that as a modus operandi. I have heard it at AG factory and at 4 private owners, including with digital, analog and tape, AG amps, 45, 300b, and Ayon 30w 300b.

Maybe, but I have only heard AG and Vox Olympian at shows, yet Aries Cerat horns sound so much more natural and not peaky and forward as I hear AGs in a show setting. I agree shows are not best for acoustics, but all have the same challenges to deal with. I also accept an AG set up at home really well may sound great. Just I have not heard it yet.

AGs I have heard seem to be a bit peaky and brittle up top, shouty. I was never able to relax into any AG room and enjoy the music. Horns I did do that with are Aries Cerat (all models), WE 1930s (various specs), Odeon (all models), some Cessaro, the new Supravox speaker.
NOT great IMO were Tune Audio, AG, Big Chinese system (sorry I don't know the brand), Viva Horn system (recent) and many smaller boutique offerings. Some other examples come to mind that did show promise, but had something not quite right. Frustrating.

The thing with horns is IMO they are very difficult to design. The benefits are huge if you get it done right, but it takes skill, years of work, testing, many challenges. And if they are NOT done right, they can be really hard too live with.

The bigger the system, especially if you want to go full range with active bass, the complexities mount. Then the size, cost and finally availability of top quality compression drivers ideal for your design. It is not easy. Magico had 'a go' and look where that ended up.

If I had massive budgets, I would be ordering a massive horn speaker right now, as I believe it is the route to getting closer to live sound. The other routes can be fine, but IMO don't quite get there.

I would fancy a DIY build, as if you can find the drivers, and good plans, it can be done. Many wood artisans have CNC machines now, so you could buy in the resource. Time consuming and risky maybe, but you could end up with an end game speaker for sure.

Finally, I found it encouraging this thread is here, Horns can get a bad rap, or as bad, forgotten amongst the blingy 'yet another cone speaker for 200k'. We need more horns!!

 

[bonzo75]

Stop spreading false information! That is not my modus operandi. I have heard the speaker in different iterations at least 10 times at shows, dealers and private owners, even fully active with 300b/2A3 amps on mid/tweeter. You don't know of what you speak and yet you spread falsehoods left and right...time to stop and get your facts straight.

Apologies, not only do you make judgements in show conditions you also do on videos of show conditions. Below is just from one thread’s sub discussion.

Post in thread 'KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/post-1066581


Post in thread 'KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/post-1066518

 

[morricab]

Apologies, not only do you make judgements in show conditions you also do on videos of show conditions. Below is just from one thread’s sub discussion.

Post in thread 'KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/post-1066581


Post in thread 'KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/post-1066518

That's not the same as saying I only make judgements based on show conditions...and I don't say anything absolute just report what I hear. You judge from videos all the time, so what? I also hear them in person. I have never heard the Wagner in person so I need to use videos as some kind of guide as to their potential... I own Hornings and they sound fantastic, Catalano obviously thought so as well because he used them for a long time in shows. I can tell you they beat the pants off any Devore I have heard.

Finally, when I did show reporting, you will see that I only commented on the rooms I thought sounded best, acknowledging that poor show performance is not necessarily indicative of a poor product. However, if you go to 20 shows and find the same speaker brand or electronics brand sounds poor year after year, do you think this is simply set up or could it in fact be that at the very least that sound is not for me or at worst is just a poor product? If I had never heard AG Duos sound good then I would be inclined to think they are simply not good but I have heard them sound outstanding...and in show conditions no less. If they can pull off a great sound at a show then I am inclined to think they can sound even better in a well sorted home system. The fact that they are all over the map soundwise tells me: A) They are really hard to set up correctly with regard to bass integration and B) they are ultra sensitive to the electronics choices.

I try to engage with you in good faith but you continually try to subvert what I say and twist to fit some kind of false pre-conceived notions. So, consider this the last response I will provide to you. I see you have no intention of being fair or honest in discussion. You continually try to impose your own mental map onto everyone else and tell them what they are thinking when you are usually wrong. Anyway, its enough and I will engage with you no more...its simply not interesting or enjoyable.

 

[Legolas]

Apologies, not only do you make judgements in show conditions you also do on videos of show conditions. Below is just from one thread’s sub discussion.

Post in thread 'KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/post-1066581


Post in thread 'KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/post-1066518

We all hear gear at different locations, different systems AND at shows. You have to sum up the impressions and get a balanced view.
Bonzo75 - you constantly put up videos of a system you have visited, with dodgy audio. But we watch them and allow for that. It is not rocket science.

But shows have merit, yes rooms are not great, but it gets you to maybe 70% of what is possible with said equipment. The thing is, many buyers of that equipment will also be in a compromised room of some sort, not everyone has a perfectly sorted acoustic space.

When I listen at shows, I do make allowances for room boom, room nodes. But if I hear pitchy treble, cupped hands vocals, flat soundstage etc, they set my alarm bells ringing, even allowing for show conditions.

 

[bonzo75]

That's not the same as saying I only make judgements based on show conditions...and I don't say anything absolute just report what I hear. You judge from videos all the time, so what?

Completely different way to the way you draw conclusions. Will never say a show video of a set of electronics no sounded better than the other,. Your history of judgements based on shows is longer than most people’s forum history