Battery Power

[Hear Here]

I wanted to report my experience with the Yeti reference v2 2000W balanced isolation transformer / power conditioner, in combination with my battery power. Didn’t know where to post this so here we are since it is relevant to battery power.

In terms of context, I built my own 48v battery powered power source with a large inverter. All my hifi system is plugged on the battery power system I built. I’m using a QSAL Ultimatum power cable from the inverter, and a Schnerzinger grid protector as well (on the battery pack, not on the grid, just to be clear).

I tried a number of power conditioners which I put in the battery power chain (ie battery pack > inverter > QSAL Ultimatum > power conditioner + Schnerzinger GP… i.e., the following were tested):
1) Airlink 2000VA
2) Airlink 3000VA
3) Puritan 156 (had 2 of them)
4) Ansuz Mainz C2
5) Isotek Sigma v3
6) Isotek Titan v5 (this one is only for power amps)
7) AQ Niagara (different models)
8) Isol-8 (forgot the model)
9) Connected Fidelity AC2K reference (this one is cryo)
10) Yeti reference v2 2000W (this one has 8 custom outlets, more on that later, and is the heaviest with 55kg/120 lbs)
11) Custom made Toroidy Supreme (4000VA if I recall properly) - highest grade specs they could sell - balanced isolation transformer
12) PS Audio
13) custom made/Mundorf based DC blockers

For passive power distributor, I was using a Cardas Nautilus.

Bottom line, notable units are:
1) Airlink has very good VFM since they’re so cheap
2) Isotek Titan v5 is fast, punchy, very dynamic and dramatic with low noise floor but could be over the top in some systems - also it’s limited to power amps
3) AC2K is balanced and musical (the one I tried did have a QSA red fuse installed)
4) Yeti reference v2 2000W sounds - by a margin in my system - the biggest, most substantial and “beefy”, more planted, confident sounding, lower noise, less harsh/hash, AND fully fleshed out top to bottom, with strong bass. Just a full, substantial, well developed sound. Effortless, and more importantly, it’s very musical. You don’t think about hifi at all. You just focus on the music. Coincidentally, alpha audio (link below) noticed and wrote the same. The Yeti has a lot of calmness and authority, decreases hardness, and has a very good, organic and European (from the ground up) type of tonal balance. Not in ANY way dry, thin, cold, harsh, analytical etc. I think SQ impact has to do with common mode or similar type of noise - but I’m not an expert on the why.

Apparently, the version I got is the latest and the founder (Thijs) told me he was able to slash the output impedance by a factor of 5. Also, in this latest version, he doesn’t use a fuse anymore to decrease further resistance (he uses something else instead).

Inside there’s a huge medical grade custom made transformer, but what I noticed is that while almost all of the others had toroid transformers, this one was more of an “old school”, square type transformer inside, similar to what you would see in a tube amp. I don’t know the name of those types of transformers or what are the pros and cons, but this was the only one that was like this with the Titan v5 (this one uses a number of smaller square transformers inside… vs a huge one in the Yeti… which weighs about 120 lbs in total).

Also inside, I can see Thijs from Yeti has put unusually heavy gauge cables. A nice touch.

Lastly, the 8 power outlets are custom made of pure copper or silver (an option) and they grip very tightly, in a good way, as we all know that outlet tightness is actually very important for SQ.

Now, on top of being the top performer, at least in my own system, here’s an additional key feature as far as I’m concerned: the Yeti has 8 outlets. Because of that, you don’t need a power cable + power distributor anymore. You can connect all components straight to the Yeti.

Why does it matter? You’re basically decreasing the number of wires and connection points which is then likely to increase the SQ of the whole system since you now have less cables, less outlets, less screws.. etc etc. Some of those conditioners or balanced isolation transformers have only a couple of outlets which means you need a power distributor.

In my view, every time power goes through a cable, a connection point, an outlet etc there’s a loss in sound quality. But with the Yeti it’s straight connections of everything from the Yeti which in my system definitely contributed to an additional boost in SQ, since I was able to remove a Cardas Clear beyond XL + a Cardas Nautilus power distributor. No need anymore. Plus the outlets are just very good quality and for context I own and tested the following outlets:
1) Furutech NCF rhodium and gold
2) Schnerzinger
3) QSA Gold (!)
4) Cardas Rhodium
5) Various Viborg
6) Oyaide (top model in the range)
7) PS Audio
8) Hospital grade (various)
I don’t feel the need to replace the Yeti outlets at all, they’re totally fine.

Let me cut to the chase: the Yeti reference v2 as a balanced isolation transformer / power conditioner is a beast (no pun intended) + on top of that it doubles as a power distributor (no need for one, and for the extra power cable anymore - as long as you’re ok with 8), a huge benefit in real life to improve SQ by removing extra cables and connection points in the critical (for SQ) power chain. And more cost effective as well.

I am so enthusiastic about this product (the other products that impressed me were QSA and QSAL, and - to some extent but not unreservedly - Schnerzinger) that I’m considering helping Thijs from Yeti (which is really a small company in the NL) in some way in the future to help his product reach more enthusiasts. But as of now, I am just a customer, and that’s the only Yeti product that I have which I purchased with my own money.

A GREAT find and highly recommended.

Link to a test of the Yeti (back then, so this is not the latest version):

https://www.alpha-audio.net/review/live-stream-test-power-conditioners-yeti-isol-8-plixir-isotek-en/

Manufacturer

Welkom - Yeti Acoustics

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yeti-acoustics.nl

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions!

One simple question that I could never answer myself when using batteries to power my own system -

Which components in the system actually need AC? The answer is normally "none"!

If they all use DC (as 99% of modern kit does), why start with AC from the mains supply, then convert to DC (stored in the battery), then back to AC (via inverter), only for the amp or whatever (using its built-in power supply) to convert this new AC back to the DC that is needed to operate its circuits?

If DC is thought to be better than AC, the answer surely is to ask the amp (and other kit) what DC voltage it needs for its circuits and supply that directly from an appropriate battery by bypassing the amp's built-in power supply. Thus DC all the way and no need for AC to be in the system at all. After all, it's the AC that is the problem, not the DC

 

[matthias]

One simple question that I could never answer myself when using batteries to power my own system -

Which components in the system actually need AC? The answer is normally "none"!

If they all use DC (as 99% of modern kit does), why start with AC from the mains supply, then convert to DC (stored in the battery), then back to AC (via inverter), only for the amp or whatever (using its built-in power supply) to convert this new AC back to the DC that is needed to operate its circuits?

If DC is thought to be better than AC, the answer surely is to ask the amp (and other kit) what DC voltage it needs for its circuits and supply that directly from an appropriate battery by bypassing the amp's built-in power supply. Thus DC all the way and no need for AC to be in the system at all. After all, it's the AC that is the problem, not the DC

This is Taiko doing with their Olympus servers, no conversion from DC to AC

 

[Hear Here]

This is Taiko doing with their Olympus servers, no conversion from DC to AC

I was responding to this comment from hificlips' description of his battery-based system - "I built my own 48v battery powered power source with a large inverter. All my hifi system is plugged on the battery power system"

There certainly is a DC to AC conversion involved.

 

[matthias]

I was responding to this comment from hificlips' description of his battery-based system - "I built my own 48v battery powered power source with a large inverter. All my hifi system is plugged on the battery power system"

There certainly is a DC to AC conversion involved.

TBH, all systems with DC to AC conversion are compromised.

 

[Hificlips]

This is very relevant indeed and thanks for bringing this up. In my view, the steps are:

1) Can your system run - practically (KEY word) - entirely on DC power ? If yes, my recommendation is to do so and avoid AC entirely. Absolutely. Instead, look for the “best” possible source of DC.

2) However, in the event you do need AC - practically again - to run your systems in some or all areas then you want the best source of AC possible. In my real life experience, it’s the Stromtank/battery 48v - when well implemented - vs any setup starting on the grid.

In other words, regardless of the process to ultimately produce AC via a DC battery setup (which indeed might be puzzling on paper), the bottom line is that battery sounded better than any other setup starting from the grid IMHO YMMV.

Benefit include - with the right inverter a) the voltage is rock solid to the tenth of volt b) the frequency is rock solid to the tenth of Hz c) the sound is always the same at any time of the day … every day is > than a Sunday morning basically d) you can choose your voltage to the volt e) the sine wave is rock solid under load e.g., if you use a 2000W arc welder the sine wave - even recorded and zoomed on an oscilloscope - basically doesn’t move, it’s solid… f) the output impedance (based on what I’be been reading) is very low… and many other benefits. But again it’s IMHO YMMV.

If someone wants to share how they run their hifi system 100% on DC including power amplifier, I’m more than interested to learn how it was done.

 

[wil]

Did you use the Stromtank in your system? To be clear, you prefer your battery, inverter, and iso transformer?

 

[Hificlips]

Did you use the Stromtank in your system? To be clear, you prefer your battery, inverter, and iso transformer?

I didn’t use a Stromtank (I did hear it many times), I did my own battery setup which arguably is much better (and that’s a whole power chain in fact, which I described), and yes I prefer it to any grid based setup. You can really hear the difference and it’s very significant. IMHO YMMV

 

[Hear Here]

1) Can your system run - practically (KEY word) - entirely on DC power ? If yes, my recommendation is to do so and avoid AC entirely. Absolutely

I'd agree with that, as I suggested earlier. The next question is - which part of your system's parts require AC? The answer in solid state systems is generally None. The item's power supply invariably converts AC to DC that drives the component parts.

2) However, in the event you do need AC - practically again

What needs AC? None of the kit I've owned for the last dozen years needs AC. Please give examples, excluding tube kit. The only "practically" aspect is that you have to bypass the item's power supply in order to operated the innards on what they require - DC

If someone wants to spend the sort of money your system is likely to cost simply to improve the purity of the AC being received into the item's power supply, one has to question whether the power supply now becomes the weak link. Why not bypass it and keep the ENTIRE system in the DC domain? All you need AC for is to periodically recharge the battery when the amp, etc are turned off.

You ask about examples that anyone has experience of. I used to own the Red Wine (now Vinnie Rossi) Signature 30 power amp. It used a pair of internal batteries to provide the DC that the boards needed. When not being listened to, a switch turned on a small charger that recharged the batteries for the next listening session. Simple as that, with zero AC present during listening times, although extended listening was possible if the batteries became exhausted - by switching on the charger that now acted as the power supply. Belt and braces, although the best sound quality was slightly better than the braces.

The practice of converting AC to DC, then back to AC, then back lastly to DC at the sort of cost your systems demands is surely questionable / bonkers! Sorry, but it has to be said, although in this hobby, we are all probably guilty of questionable / bonkers decisions.

 

[Hificlips]

I'd agree with that, as I suggested earlier. The next question is - which part of your system's parts require AC? The answer in solid state systems is generally None. The item's power supply invariably converts AC to DC that drives the component parts.


What needs AC? None of the kit I've owned for the last dozen years needs AC. Please give examples, excluding tube kit. The only "practically" aspect is that you have to bypass the item's power supply in order to operated the innards on what they require - DC

If someone wants to spend the sort of money your system is likely to cost simply to improve the purity of the AC being received into the item's power supply, one has to question whether the power supply now becomes the weak link. Why not bypass it and keep the ENTIRE system in the DC domain? All you need AC for is to periodically recharge the battery when the amp, etc are turned off.

You ask about examples that anyone has experience of. I used to own the Red Wine (now Vinnie Rossi) Signature 30 power amp. It used a pair of internal batteries to provide the DC that the boards needed. When not being listened to, a switch turned on a small charger that recharged the batteries for the next listening session. Simple as that, with zero AC present during listening times, although extended listening was possible if the batteries became exhausted - by switching on the charger that now acted as the power supply. Belt and braces, although the best sound quality was slightly better than the braces.

The practice of converting AC to DC, then back to AC, then back lastly to DC at the sort of cost your systems demands is surely questionable / bonkers! Sorry, but it has to be said, although in this hobby, we are all probably guilty of questionable / bonkers decisions.

I think that’s great what you did - many people are not able to bypass AC in their system. They might not want to open their components in the first place, don’t want to void their warranty, don’t want to take the risk (whether real or perceived), or don’t have the technical ability to do so.

Or their components don’t allow that for various reasons i.e., the way the boards are put together, you can’t easily hack them unless you tap into the PCB with flying wires… remove voltage regulators, rectifier bridges etc. Or the components just don’t have a battery inside. Or the AC to DC isolation is just not that strong (all components are like this in my experience, regardless of price, that’s why power cables work). So in the end… That’s not for everybody. That’s what I mean by “practically”.

But for those who can and are willing to do it, more “power” to them (pun intended)! That’s the ideal way indeed, on paper (in real life might be a different debate), no doubt about that.

 

[Hear Here]

I think that’s great what you did - many people are not able to bypass AC in their system.

I can't take credit for bypassing the power supply in the Red Wine amp - it was designed to be battery operated in the first place. That's how the company started - offering battery-powered / AC-free audio kit.

The problem was that their amp technology of choice was Tripath Class D. At the time, Class D was not well enough advanced to challenge conventional ss or tube designs - as I found out after a year or so.

I accept what you say about warranties but perhaps an exchange of correspondence with the brand may get around that problem.

 

[Kingrex]

I think its a lot more complex than AC vs DC. I had a battery powered DAC . My AC powered Mojo Audio is light years better.

My understanding is there is a lot of different voltage required in say an amp. From 5 volts to 900 or more volts. So your still needing to buck and boost the voltage. And some area are hyper sensitive to voltage. So you still need to do something for perfect voltage stability.

I am intrigued by the simple fact that a good inverter and 48 volt battery with a isolation transformer on the load and a schnerzinger as an aditional filter perform at a very high level. That is ground breaking for those that live in an appartment.

Its even more groundbreaking for those that may move and want to take their quality power with them.

The problem still remains. Each battery is about 12 x 20 c 16. Each inverter is about 7 x 14 x 22.

The cable lashing the battery to inverter is critical and needs to be very short.

Inverters have a tendency to Squeel. Or loud fans under load.

You probably need more than 1 complete setup.

Positive is they easily patallel and you can have 100 amps power behind your rack.

 

[TooCool4]

A bit late to this thread, but I red every single one before replying.

I have been using battery / double conversion UPS for about 8 years now. I am using an Emerson / Liebert GXT4 3000VA / 2700W.
Where I use to live, it was a rented house that was built in 1894 I think, the power was really bad, if the fridge went on or off you will hear it through the Hi-Fi.

Since we used some very good power conditioner / regenerator at work in our server room, I thought I’ll give it a go. Since the Emerson / Liebert GXT4 did regeneration and the equipment on the end of it never sees the wall outlet, I thought it’s worth a try. It had many useful advantages, I can set the output voltage to correct output for the UK which is 240V (voltage not going up and down is better for the kit), it also creates a perfect sine wave plus should there be a lightning or power spike from the wall it will trip and I have to do is reset it. If the power should go out I can still listen to music for a while before I have to shutdown. I turned off the alarm should I have a power cut and I don’t want it beeping at me, it will just keep flashing to let me know there is a power outage.

All I need to do was to calculate the current draw for all my kit, I made sure to get something much bigger than what I needed. I got one that gave me plenty of headroom.
I bought a brand new one, when it arrived and I put it on to test it. The first problem I came across was the fan noise, did not think about that as we used them in the server room that was noisy anyway. So could not use it for a while, as I had to go and order a couple of Noctua fans to replace the noisy ones. After getting the new fans, and changing the pins / connectors. I installed them, tried it again and it was whisper quiet.

It has 6 x 10A and 1 x 16A connections. I use the 10A connections for most things and the 16A connection for the power amp.
I had to changed all the plug on the end of my power cable to ones that will plug straight into a UPS, meant I saved on fuses.
I plugged everything and switched on, I was not expecting what I heard next. I was expecting the music to be less noisy, the first thing I noticed was the bass end dropped. Wow, was not expecting that. Did not have to even do an A/B comparison it was obvious from the word go.

I did all of this for not more than £1500, so who need StromTank at very high price to do the same thing, what I have has an advantage over the StromTank it can still power the system if there is a power outage.

I had an electrician come round to my old flat to install a new meter a while back, he was able to turn off the power and do his work without me having to stop listening to music.

I have the unit sitting under my rack and some Symposium Rollerblock Jr’s

 

[Kingrex]

My gut says a lot of battery solutions can be improved upon with good filters following the inverter. I like the idea of say a Torus RM20 and a Schnerzinger Grid Protector after a battery inverter.
Battery $3700
Inverter $1600
Cabling $600
RM20 $4250
Grid Protector $7000.
That about $17,000.
The Schnerzinger is a big chunk. Can you do it without it. Same for the RM20. Can you do it without it.

FWIW. That cash outlay could power a complete 300 watt and under system. All of it.

If I had CH precision or Gryphon monos, you probably need 3 power supplies. 1 for each mono amp and 1 for the entire front end.
At $51,000, I could easily get you a 10kva wall mount Torus, installed, as well as my subpanel powering the Torus and many filtered and unfiltered circuits to the room. And I know that would power anything. Very versatile.

But, the battery solutions goes with you if you moved. And they could be sold as a package or broken up and parted out.

 

[wil]

Rex, at this point in your thinking, what specifically do you have in mind for a battery/inverter? How would it compare technically to what Stromtank does?

 

[Kingrex]

There is a 3000 Watt Victron Inverter that is pretty basic with low distortion. I would use an Abyss Battery. Very good quality. Get the battery with their proprietary charger your could unplug from the wall.
I am considering having a plant make me a battery box and inverter box. The purpose it that all ports would be attached to the enclosures. As in the charge cable port. The battery to inverter cable port. As well as the output duplex. A simple plug and play. Clean and easy for anyone to use.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Inverter-3000VA-120V-EN.pdf

ABYSS® 24V 100Ah Lithium Trolling Motor Battery

Upgrade with our 24 volt lithium trolling motor battery for reliable power. The ABYSS® 24V 100Ah is compact, ideal for marine use, and perfect for fishing trips.

www.abyssbattery.com

You may need 2 as this inverter is 24 volt. Can't get 48 volt.

 

[wil]

There is a 3000 Watt Victron Inverter that is pretty basic with low distortion. I would use an Abyss Battery. Very good quality. Get the battery with their proprietary charger your could unplug from the wall.
I am considering having a plant make me a battery box and inverter box. The purpose it that all ports would be attached to the enclosures. As in the charge cable port. The battery to inverter cable port. As well as the output duplex. A simple plug and play. Clean and easy for anyone to use.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Inverter-3000VA-120V-EN.pdf

ABYSS® 24V 100Ah Lithium Trolling Motor Battery

Upgrade with our 24 volt lithium trolling motor battery for reliable power. The ABYSS® 24V 100Ah is compact, ideal for marine use, and perfect for fishing trips.

www.abyssbattery.com

You may need 2 as this inverter is 24 volt. Can't get 48 volt.

Is this particular abyss battery LiFePo4? And have you looked into the Giandel inverters?

 

[Kingrex]

Is this particular abyss battery LiFePo4? And have you looked into the Giandel inverters?

Yes. I can get them as a dealer. But I only get like 10% discount. There is no money in it for me. So I don't bother. But that is a very good battery. The charger is about $600. Its a stand alone charger. If you get it, the battery cables need to be exactly the same length and very short The load side 120 volt cable can be longer. Try and keep the battey/inverter cable under 2 feet. Get heavy marine grade FTZ lugs for the ends. You can strip the tin out of them. But it takes a lot of time. And you have to polish the surface to a bright shine. Then throughly wash in hot water. Then dry and deoxit G100 about 4 or 5 times till the application cloth is absolutely clean. Then terminate it.

On the load, consider getting a decent cable from the inverter to your RM20. Then cut the end off that goes to the inverter and hard wire it. Don't bother with a duplex.

 

[wil]

Yes. I can get them as a dealer. But I only get like 10% discount. There is no money in it for me. So I don't bother. But that is a very good battery.

Rex, I’m not clear if you’re talking above about the Giandel inverter or the Abyss battery? Do you like LiFePo4 over the other lithium choices for home audio? Thanks

 

[Kingrex]

I never mentioned a Giandel inverter. I wouldn't get a Giandel.

I linked the battery and inverter. All the info is there.
\
Edit, Sorry, I did not see you asked if I liked the LiFePo4. I honestly don't know. I have heard they are the best. I need to purchase the stuff and listen. But I was never able to make a package that was worth my time. If I tried to sell this stuff, I would make $170 on a battery and about $150 on an inverter. You know why people love to sell Stromtank. Its roughly $30,000 for one and the dealer makes $10,000 to $12,000.

$320!!!!!. If I could use a 24 volt battery in my boat, I would have bought one already. But I have the benefit of being able to drop a $20,000 power upgrade into my house for about $2,000. I don't have any gain investing the money to buy a battery, inverter, cables. So I haven't. I have done enough shows to know if I took a package to Axpona or PAF or any other and people saw it, they would take a picture and make it themselves.

 

[wil]

What I would do: Find the components for the best battery/inverter and battery management system you can. Wire and connect to the highest standards you can. Test the set up in a variety of systems. When it outperforms the Stromtank, assemble it all it all in a nice looking and solid box that will appeal to audiophiles. Price it at 50% of the equivalent Stromtank.