Introducing Olympus & Olympus I/O - A new perspective on modern music playback

[Moladiego]

PS - Hurwitz could make his points without being so divisive, but he chooses to be obnoxious.

On the whole, I enjoyed watching Hurwitz's YouTube clips and often learned from his recommendations (most recently I "discovered" and came to love Zoltan Kocsis's piano recordings (whom I had heard about) thanks to his glowing recommendations. Sure, Hurwitz appears to be arrogant, condescending, and obnoxious, but perhaps it is his public persona or mask. To give you an instance of my disagreement with him: he loves Mahler much more than Bruckner; I am the opposite. But even for Mahler 9, he never mentioned Maderna/BBC SO 1971 live; his top choice is Chaily/RCO, which is not even among my top 3 choices; Maderna is so special, especially for the 1st movement). I also disagreed with Hurwitz's view about Bach's religious music, which is something so bitter that needs to be sweetened by "mild" and "beautiful" performances in his view. He completely "missed the ball." I digressed and will stop here before somebody calling the stop here.

 

[Steve Williams]

Yes, plenty of seats available on this Magical...
Ah nevermind, lol.

sorta like "Puff, the Magic Dragon"

 

[LL21]

On the whole, I enjoyed watching Hurwitz's YouTube clips and often learned from his recommendations (most recently I "discovered" and came to love Zoltan Kocsis's piano recordings (whom I had heard about) thanks to his glowing recommendations. Sure, Hurwitz appears to be arrogant, condescending, and obnoxious, but perhaps it is his public persona or mask. To give you an instance of my disagreement with him: he loves Mahler much more than Bruckner; I am the opposite. But even for Mahler 9, he never mentioned Maderna/BBC SO 1971 live; his top choice is Chaily/RCO, which is not even among my top 3 choices; Maderna is so special, especially for the 1st movement). I also disagreed with Hurwitz's view about Bach's religious music, which is something so bitter that needs to be sweetened by "mild" and "beautiful" performances in his view. He completely "missed the ball." I digressed and will stop here before somebody calling the stop here.

Ok...I am no classical expert. I have several different conductors' worth of Mahler's Symphonies. The ones I tend to listen to most often that come to mind first are:
- Haitnick & Royal Concertgebouw
- Ivan Fischer particularly Symphony 2

Will give Maderna a read...what else do you recommend?

 

[Moladiego]

Ok...I am no classical expert. I have several different conductors' worth of Mahler's Symphonies. The ones I tend to listen to most often that come to mind first are:
- Haitnick & Royal Concertgebouw
- Ivan Fischer particularly Symphony 2

Will give Maderna a read...what else do you recommend?

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Very briefly (b/c not relevant to this forum). My enthusiasm for Mahler has cooled down considerably over the years; my passion is for Bruckner (for whom I can give you recommendations I am much more sure about). 3: Ozawa/BSO; Abbado/Lucerne (Bernstein's 2 recordings suffer from too low mvt 6, but his DG/NYPO is otherwise great); 4 (Maazel/VPO); 5 (Bernstein/VPO; Levine/Philly); 6 (Bernstein/NYPO or VPO; Tilson Thomas/SFS); 7 (Bernstein, Levine); 8 (Solti/CSO; Wit); 9 (Maderna/BBC SO except last mvt, too fast for my taste while Levine or Bernstein is too slow; 24 minutes or so would be ideal to me; Giulini/CSO; Ozawa/BSO); 1 & 2 (not sure at this moment). We could exchange views further via PM. (I am no Karajan fan, either for Mahler or Bruckner.)

 

[LL21]

Thank you! Would like to know more about Bruckner...again Haitnick for me. But Nelsons, Rattle, Honeck were all good but not necessarily inspiring for me.

 

[Moladiego]

Thank you! Would like to know more about Bruckner...again Haitnick for me. But Nelsons, Rattle, Honeck were all good but not necessarily inspiring for me.

PM. I am passionate about Bruckner, the greatest symphonist ever to me; next is Brahms, 3rd is Beethoven (silly, but that's my preference). I have about 40 different albums of Bruckner 8. Love Jochum's DG set (not the best for every symphony, but the one box I'd recommend the most).

 

[LL21]

On the whole, I enjoyed watching Hurwitz's YouTube clips and often learned from his recommendations (most recently I "discovered" and came to love Zoltan Kocsis's piano recordings (whom I had heard about) thanks to his glowing recommendations. Sure, Hurwitz appears to be arrogant, condescending, and obnoxious, but perhaps it is his public persona or mask. To give you an instance of my disagreement with him: he loves Mahler much more than Bruckner; I am the opposite. But even for Mahler 9, he never mentioned Maderna/BBC SO 1971 live; his top choice is Chaily/RCO, which is not even among my top 3 choices; Maderna is so special, especially for the 1st movement). I also disagreed with Hurwitz's view about Bach's religious music, which is something so bitter that needs to be sweetened by "mild" and "beautiful" performances in his view. He completely "missed the ball." I digressed and will stop here before somebody calling the stop here.

BTW, got the Maderna! Coming later this month! Thanks for the recommendations...the mini-reviews were also spectacularly positive as well.

 

[Moladiego]

BTW, got the Maderna! Coming later this month! Thanks for the recommendations...the mini-reviews were also spectacularly positive as well.

The first movement of Mahler 9: such consummate phrasing, rhythm, pulse, amazingly good sound for a 1971 live recording from the Royal Festival Hall (said to be bad in acoustics), notwithstanding very audible coughing from audience. Only the last movement at 21:28, sounds too fast to me, but it is a valid alternative "optimistic" approach (not the kind of dreary, world-weary, death-engrossed interpretation of Bernstein or Levine, stretching to 28-31 minutes). Maderna was an outstanding composer too, died too young.

 

[LL21]

Thank you!!

 

[adyc]

Agreed, there is indeed a great hunger for this vital comparison. But we really need to be patient.

There are only a few lucky souls who have:
- received their Olympi
- have MSB or H360 DACs
- have burned in their XDMI Analog daughter cards
- have burned in their XDMI Digital Lampi/MSB daughter cards
- have the motivation and skill to do the surgery to swap the daughter cards a few times to do A/B comparisons.

Those of us on this thread who are more technical and/or comfortable with computers may consider the last point no big deal, but for many, even the simple act of swapping daughter cards is a daunting proposition. I consider myself in the technical/skilled category, but even I had some choice swear words when I was bent over trying to align the six bolts on the back to fasten the XDMI card securely. And if you have to move the O and I/O to do this, there's the 130lb weight problem.

The point of all this is, we would hope that the lucky few would be more proactive in doing these comparisons (yesterday!) but let's give them some grace and understanding. This is NOT as easy as swapping cables, and so we just have to be patient until somebody with enough motivation gets around to doing this.

I should also mention that the Taiko community is a union of at least 2 sets of people:
- those who would love for XDMI Analog to render their current DACs redundant, thus mitigating the cost of the O by selling their DACs and
- those who would love for the XDMI digital interface to take their existing beloved DACs to new heights of performance. These folks aren't really looking to replace their beloved DACs, so would likely not be very motivated to do the comparison with XDMI Analog.

Both these groups can coexist, and the happy truth is that both groups are buying (or want to buy) Olympi. And that ultimately, is what we wish for Taiko's continued success!

This problem is quite easily solved. For all these owners, just buy another O and IO. And they do not need to swap the cards.

 

[nenon]

always appreciate your posts as i’m sure we all do. it is noteworthy imho you did not mention comps to Horizon 360 via xdmi.

also you say “We can already see massive resistance by a lot of people here. It does not have my favorite tube, so it can't match my current DAC. It does not have XX DAC chips (5000?) in parallel, so it can't be good. It's just a small board in a very noisy computer environment, and it can't be better than my DAC. It does not have the analog stage of my X or Y DAC, and it can't be that good. It does not have the fancy (5-digit priced) clock on my DAC, so it can't be taken seriously. The resistance from quite a few people here so far has been so big, that they refuse to pop in the XDMI analog card they have on hand and have a listen to it.”

Really do not know what “massive” resistance that you are referring to? or “resistance has been so big that they refuse to pop in the XDMI analog card”’…. are you implying SteveW? others?

Many of us are just hoping for an honest comp between analog XDMI out versus Digital XDMI out to Horizon or MSB compatible XDMI. would never describe this as “massive resistance” or some refusal to believe.

you say “A lot of pushback... and yet, almost everyone who dared to listen to the XDMI analog card has decided to stay with it and sell their previous favorite DAC. That includes a wide range of what were considered state-of-the-art DACs ranging from $50K to $150K and from quite a few really good manufacturers.”

almost everyone? “dared”? Has anyone sold their Lampizator or MSB xdmi compatible dacs? have they said olympus analog out is superior to them? Please share as noone has posted that here. Have you done those comparisons?

Hey @ctydwn, let me clarify a bit more.

When I talk about "massive resistance," I mean the broader skepticism I encounter almost daily. Out of every 10 people I explain the Taiko Olympus XDMI to, about 9 fall into the "resistant" category. I’m not even trying to sell it - just suggesting they give it a listen in their system.

For example, one person recently spent close to a million dollars on equipment and still doesn’t believe a server can make any difference. He would buy the most expensive DAC there is but skip the server as a non-believer. Another refuses to even consider a "computer" in their setup, so both the Extreme and Olympus are a no-go. Then there’s the usual criticism: it doesn’t have this, it doesn’t have that, it’s a small card in a noisy computer, so it can't be good, the analog section makes the DAC, so that little card can't be good, etc. Little do they realize how much they’re missing out on their digital source.

I’m relatively new to the industry, but I’ve built pretty much everything myself over the years - speakers, amps, preamps, phono stages, turntables, servers, DACs, you name it, and have a good technical understanding of how things work. What really bothers me is seeing people spend massive amounts of money on the wrong solution for the problem they have. Like someone having an untreated room causing issues, and their dealer selling them more expensive amplifiers to solve the problem. And 6 months later they sell them the upgraded version of these amplifiers. And another 6 months later they sell them a more expensive amplifier because the last 3 did not resolve the problem. They are out $200K when all they needed to do is add a couple room treatment panels for example. People keep chasing their tails for years and years and are never happy with their sound. It really hurts me when I see that.

Ironically, that same industry has created a vision in people's heads about what's good and what's bad. For example, someone with DAC X may value the clock above everything else and won’t even consider another DAC (Olympus included) unless it has a more expensive clock (because his dealer said so). And even if I had first hand experience with that DAC and suggest that the Olympus XDMI would sound better, they won’t take it seriously. Yet as soon as DAC X announces a better clock, they’ll jump on it - even if the upgrade costs more than the Olympus.

To be clear, I wasn’t pointing fingers at anyone specific (and definitely not SteveW). I’m just saying that some here have the capability to do meaningful comparisons but don’t for one reason or another - whether it’s valid or just skepticism about the XDMI analog card.

So, now that we've covered "massive resistance", where does that leave us? Ah, yeah, more data points. I want more data points too. I would love to hear these comparisons firsthand too.

Also, my mention about some people selling their expensive DACs did not imply that it was done after comparing XDMI analog to XDMI to Lampizator or MSB. I just like you am waiting to see more of these data points.

 

[nenon]

I do, however, believe there was an agenda to go after the MSB Select 2, aggressively, and the resulting report, to me, was not convincing. There are just so many variables, and the music seemed cherry-picked.

That report was posted by me, and so I will chime in.

My friend is an analog guy - he doesn’t even take digital seriously. His dealer sold him the MSB Select 2 DAC and Digital Director as the best digital source money can buy. As a Taiko Extreme customer, he got curious about the Taiko Olympus. He has a really nice system that was recently upgraded, and I wanted to hear it too, so we arranged a listening session.

This wasn’t about going after the MSB Select 2 aggressively - far from it. It was just a friendly gathering that could turn into a sale for me. But yeah, it was a long drive, and I had to justify it as a “business trip”. The highlight of the long drive was spending the night in a sketchy highway motel with over $100K worth of gear in the trunk - including the Olympus. Let’s just say I was really hoping everything would still be there in the morning.

So no, there was no agenda here - just curiosity, fun, and a chance to share impressions. His MSB gear was for sale shortly after I left, though.

That said, we didn’t conduct any double-blind tests, and the results weren’t based on statistically significant data. It was just a casual listening session to share impressions. So nothing is conclusive, and more data points are definitely welcome.

 

[SwissTom]

Hey @ctydwn, let me clarify a bit more.

When I talk about "massive resistance," I mean the broader skepticism I encounter almost daily. Out of every 10 people I explain the Taiko Olympus XDMI to, about 9 fall into the "resistant" category. I’m not even trying to sell it - just suggesting they give it a listen in their system.

For example, one person recently spent close to a million dollars on equipment and still doesn’t believe a server can make any difference. He would buy the most expensive DAC there is but skip the server as a non-believer. Another refuses to even consider a "computer" in their setup, so both the Extreme and Olympus are a no-go. Then there’s the usual criticism: it doesn’t have this, it doesn’t have that, it’s a small card in a noisy computer, so it can't be good, the analog section makes the DAC, so that little card can't be good, etc. Little do they realize how much they’re missing out on their digital source.

I’m relatively new to the industry, but I’ve built pretty much everything myself over the years - speakers, amps, preamps, phono stages, turntables, servers, DACs, you name it, and have a good technical understanding of how things work. What really bothers me is seeing people spend massive amounts of money on the wrong solution for the problem they have. Like someone having an untreated room causing issues, and their dealer selling them more expensive amplifiers to solve the problem. And 6 months later they sell them the upgraded version of these amplifiers. And another 6 months later they sell them a more expensive amplifier because the last 3 did not resolve the problem. They are out $200K when all they needed to do is add a couple room treatment panels for example. People keep chasing their tails for years and years and are never happy with their sound. It really hurts me when I see that.

Ironically, that same industry has created a vision in people's heads about what's good and what's bad. For example, someone with DAC X may value the clock above everything else and won’t even consider another DAC (Olympus included) unless it has a more expensive clock (because his dealer said so). And even if I had first hand experience with that DAC and suggest that the Olympus XDMI would sound better, they won’t take it seriously. Yet as soon as DAC X announces a better clock, they’ll jump on it - even if the upgrade costs more than the Olympus.

To be clear, I wasn’t pointing fingers at anyone specific (and definitely not SteveW). I’m just saying that some here have the capability to do meaningful comparisons but don’t for one reason or another - whether it’s valid or just skepticism about the XDMI analog card.

So, now that we've covered "massive resistance", where does that leave us? Ah, yeah, more data points. I want more data points too. I would love to hear these comparisons firsthand too.

Also, my mention about some people selling their expensive DACs did not imply that it was done after comparing XDMI analog to XDMI to Lampizator or MSB. I just like you am waiting to see more of these data points.

Hi Vassil @nenon ,

I’m replying to your message but also addressing those who might read this.

The issue you raise is both complex and systemic.

Its origins are numerous, but in my view, they share the following common factors:

• Rigid preconceptions,
• Cognitive defence mechanisms.
• A lack of general scientific knowledge.

The problem of acoustic treatment is a classic example. How can one accept and understand that the listening room is both the most important element and the weakest link in a HiFi system if one doesn’t grasp what sound really is (i.e. what an acoustic wave is)?

It’s easy enough to replace every component in a HiFi chain, especially if money isn't a problem. However, moving to a new listening space, or transforming the one we have, which is often a living space, is far more challenging, even when budget constraints aren’t an issue.

Conversely, when the budget is limited, objects tend to become trophies. And this is entirely understandable, particularly in a hobby driven by passion. This is all the more true given that, for most people, money doesn’t fall from the sky, it’s hard-earned.

So, how can one accept that a $100,000 DAC might be replaced by a humble little $900 daughterboard? Or that a bit of acoustic treatment is more valuable than a $90,000 amplifier?

This is where cognitive defence mechanisms come into play. And it’s perfectly natural.

Shifting paradigms, setting aside one’s certainties, is intellectually challenging. History offers countless examples (Galileo, Copernicus, Bohr, etc.).

I’ll admit that I would struggle to part with my Soulution 760 DAC (paid full price); I fall into the category of those with a limited budget.

But I would do it.

No, I’m not more intelligent than others or more open-minded. I simply have an advantage: HiFi is not my primary hobby. If I had to choose, I could live without it.

This is to say that I understand the resistance you’re referring to.

That said, I do appreciate Taiko’s spirit: shifting paradigms.

Most players in the HiFi industry innovate very little, they optimise.

Taiko is rather audacious. They’ve decided to innovate and take risks, going against what is typically done. In fact, I don’t believe they’re making any profit on their DAC board, just have to look at the price of the chip and do some rough calculations (the DAC board is probably being sold at cost).

In short, if we appreciate the brand and value innovation in HiFi, @Taiko Audio is worth supporting.

Cheers,

Thomas

 

[John T]

At this juncture in one's "audio life" you better have an open mind! (outside the audio life too) I don't see or hear of this "resistance". If so I think it is few. Perhaps frustration is being confused with resistance? People I have spoken with do have an open mind. How can their be resistance without hearing any of the applications? Most of us still have some gray matter still intact. With such limited assessments its virtually impossible to make any informed opinions or decisions...

 

[MarcelNL]

The first movement of Mahler 9: such consummate phrasing, rhythm, pulse, amazingly good sound for a 1971 live recording from the Royal Festival Hall (said to be bad in acoustics), notwithstanding very audible coughing from audience. Only the last movement at 21:28, sounds too fast to me, but it is a valid alternative "optimistic" approach (not the kind of dreary, world-weary, death-engrossed interpretation of Bernstein or Levine, stretching to 28-31 minutes). Maderna was an outstanding composer too, died too young.

OT:

I favor Kubelik (with the BRSO) as conductor and lately Klaus Makala (go see a live performance with the RCO, or the Vienna Phil)

 

[fbhifi]

Playing in the ultra high end has evolved into a high stakes game. It is prudent to be highly circumspect of one’s choice of dealer(s) and their recommendations.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...interesting, insightful posts from @SwissTom and @nenon (and others). This is also good data for the evaluation process.

I would add to the list of evaluation criteria: emotion. Not just the emotional response to the music you enjoy on Component T vs. M, but the emotional response that is born and blossoms from the evaluation, purchase and enjoyment of said components.

Perhaps some folks are not "emotional" purchasers or holders of audio gear. They buy it if they like it, enjoy it, and are not overly attached to the gear itself. This may make selling it on easier? If one can afford it, it may become a step in a journey which does not end. I am not suggesting this is bad. People enjoy optimizing things...just making things better, in my view. But not everyone.

Some people are more emotional in their decisions, and/or may retain more emotional connection to a purchase or a product. At times, I am one of these types of audio people.

For me, my audio is sometimes a type of "pleasure stock" I own. I do my research, listen to a few pundits, and demo if possible, and then I buy (or not). Perhaps I am slow to buy and slow to sell. Though I was #38 on the Olympus list, so maybe medium-slow?

Anyway, there are multiple companies with great stock offerings tugging at my ears and my wallet, and the pleasure valuation can go up and down over time. In the model we are discussing: Taiko and MSB.

Both great and innovative companies, with clever leaders and tech. I like both teams and both tech offerings. I don't think the Gullman's will get mad at me personally if I sell my dac/dd and stick with the Taiko board. Likewise, Emile isn't going to cry in his beer if I keep the MSB implementation, even if he disagrees with my choice.

I have held on to stocks long after my broker suggested we sell, sometimes making a good move, sometimes not. But I don't make stock moves based on emotion.

Audio "pleasure stock" is a little different for me. There is more emotion involved. It's also head, but a lotta heart. Just like the guys who make Taiko and MSB components, I imagine.

It's going to take a while for me to recognize what to keep and what to sell. And I can keep them both!

 

[Steve Williams]

To my ears there has never been in all my years in this hobby a correct way as there are so many ways to make beautiful music, I have truly heard the same system in 2 different houses where one sounded great and another so so. So yes the room is also a huge factor as well as the size of the room. My system and mantra has always been built on following the best SQ as it relates to tubes in my system. Every tube I use has been tuned to my system, my ears and my room. To me there just arent two finer companies on the face of the earth for my money than Taiko and Lampizator as both have brought my ears to the bleeding edge. and just when I thought it was end game with the Extreme and the Horizon, along came the creative genius of Emile and Lukasz along with their collaborative minds to create a solution to bring true native DSD to the Horizon DAC out of which evolved the Horizon 360. A similar scenario has occurred on the MSB front so I am sure the data points will arise. I know that I will be be dumbfounded to listen to the analogue board in my system but unlike many who just have the Olympus to contend with and to change boards, my XDMI board resides in my IO which is sitting under a 65Kgm Olympus both of which occupying the top spot on my rack. I had to hire 2 muscle men to get these very heavy components up my stairs and mounted on my rack. There is no way I can change boards without like minded able bodied men. I see this comparison coming to fruition if and when Emile can find the time to journey to Southern California for a much awaited open house when everyone reading this is invited to attend . To facilitate an even quicker A-B comparison it is my hope that Emile can bring a 2nd IO with the XDMI analogue board and a longer set of QSFP to reach this IO which I will have on a CMS platform on the floor adjacent to my rack. I believe this will be a defining moment and truly show two magnificent ways to hear XDMI. Might it entice me to sell my LampizatOr. Maybe but maybe not. What I can see it doing is me buying that 2nnd IO from Emile and I can then forever and always enjoy the best of both worlds. Plus this data point would be a good place for people to come have a listen as the tests can be done very quickly without lifting the big Horizon off the underlying IO.

To me these are exciting times and I cant wait to hear the analogue board in my system

 

[pleroma]

...interesting, insightful posts from @SwissTom and @nenon (and others). This is also good data for the evaluation process.

I would add to the list of evaluation criteria: emotion. Not just the emotional response to the music you enjoy on Component T vs. M, but the emotional response that is born and blossoms from the evaluation, purchase and enjoyment of said components.

Perhaps some folks are not "emotional" purchasers or holders of audio gear. They buy it if they like it, enjoy it, and are not overly attached to the gear itself. This may make selling it on easier? If one can afford it, it may become a step in a journey which does not end. I am not suggesting this is bad. People enjoy optimizing things...just making things better, in my view. But not everyone.

Some people are more emotional in their decisions, and/or may retain more emotional connection to a purchase or a product. At times, I am one of these types of audio people.

For me, my audio is sometimes a type of "pleasure stock" I own. I do my research, listen to a few pundits, and demo if possible, and then I buy (or not). Perhaps I am slow to buy and slow to sell. Though I was #38 on the Olympus list, so maybe medium-slow?

Anyway, there are multiple companies with great stock offerings tugging at my ears and my wallet, and the pleasure valuation can go up and down over time. In the model we are discussing: Taiko and MSB.

Both great and innovative companies, with clever leaders and tech. I like both teams and both tech offerings. I don't think the Gullman's will get mad at me personally if I sell my dac/dd and stick with the Taiko board. Likewise, Emile isn't going to cry in his beer if I keep the MSB implementation, even if he disagrees with my choice.

I have held on to stocks long after my broker suggested we sell, sometimes making a good move, sometimes not. But I don't make stock moves based on emotion.

Audio "pleasure stock" is a little different for me. There is more emotion involved. It's also head, but a lotta heart. Just like the guys who make Taiko and MSB components, I imagine.

It's going to take a while for me to recognize what to keep and what to sell. And I can keep them both!

I'm holding on the Cascade until I'm absolutely certain. It's just so much better than any other DAC I've heard. YMMV.

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm holding on the Cascade until I'm absolutely certain. It's just so much better than any other DAC I've heard. YMMV.

I can relate to this as I feel the same about my Horizon 360. I might become the only one to own two IOs so that I have both to listen to. Sort of like having a few tonearms and several cartridges mounted on my turntable