Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[kodomo]

Do not get me wrong, I am not one of those people who dislike Cessaros. I think a Gamma II properly setup is one of the best -if not the best- horn speaker systems available commercialy. Maybe Gamma does not have the reactance chamber and the driver operates as direct radiator below the horn loading. This may be possible, I tried and listened to this with my own system but preferred the completely horn loaded midbass sound with reactance annuled exactly to 110hz (my horns cutoff) Here is an old measurement I have with only horns operating (like what Tang does now I guess) and no bass solution. This is what I would expect for Tang to get it too, if the driver is not operating below mid-bass horns cutoff. My measurement shows horn not in the corner, so there is no corner gain. The measurement is taken at 74db spl.

 

[ddk]

But without the subs the lower horn cuts off at what? 100hz...how were you getting any bass at all?

In absence of specs I can’t tell you cutoff frequencies of this speaker but in room response without the subs is probably in the mid 30’s. There’s no possibility of relocation in this space choice is muddied sound or a very clear one with a little missing foundation in the very low frequencies.

david

 

[microstrip]

I don't get tape. Tape sounds either not good enough or too good. Recordings made by Yarlung, Pong, Jonathan etc sound fantastic. I also do not like a lot of the music there. Sometimes classical sounds like jazz, too much in the room. But listen to Beethoven symphony tapes, and the ones I heard have been later generation, and quite poor in SQ.

Now, I did manage to compare some tapes of the exact same performances of the LPs. Did I have conclusions? No, except that the tape was quite better. I remember Steve played Oistrakh Scottish Fantasia on tape and I had the Speaker's Corner. While tape was better, I was quite happy with the LP (played on Techdas Zyx Lamm). Myles' Yarlung Janecki trio was just utterly fantastic (compared to other music on VPI, Atlas/Ortofon A95, Doshi). Both Myles and Steve, like Tang, have the Doshi tape pre.

I heard other Studers without tape preamps. I had mixed results. Some too analytical. Some not enough drive. Put the right tape on, which would usually be excellent sonics accompanied by poor quality music/performance, and the system would come to life.

Dcc played some tapes on his Studer, no tape pre, next to his Brinkmann Balance/Proteus/Allnic. Some were identical performances. The tape was just much more dynamic, better attack, higher dynamic range, better everything

What did we conclude except that when tape sounds better, it sounds better, irrespective of the analog set up, and when it doesn't it doesn't. I have never heard the two sounding very close, though people write about one of their cart sounds closest to tape. One veteran dealer in the UK claims the Proteus sounds closest to his Studer, and he also likes SPUs. DCC uses Studer and Proteus. Steve has Zyx next to his tape. Myles has Atlas and vdh. Tang reported that Atlas sounds closest to his tape. But then he told me that while playing Opus on one of the General's LPs, it sounded like Ed Pong's tapes.

Even at Mike's I was left a bit cold with his tapes, probably due to the music played on it, possibly due to lack of a Doshi pre, I cannot say. I enjoyed his analog so much more.

And the General's music is far far superior to anything on tape. So I am just not interested in tape. I have heard extremely few tape performances that can compete with good recordings from Heifetz, Oistrakh, Michael Rabin, Heimo Haitto, Rosty, Starker, Maria Yudina, Clara Haskil, etc and especially any of the big orchestras (never heard a good tape with their performance). There are so many other performers in Eastern Europe etc not covered by main labels. I am not interested in listening to cafe classical and cafe jazz tapes whose only objective is to make one's system sound impressive to visitors. So I like using these LPs for compare, and I like comparing carts to each other. Comparing them to tape makes them all sound sh*t or all sound better, depending on the tape.

Yes, if one can source masters or first generation of the great LP performances, that would be interesting. Or if someone could copy these LPs on to tape, and play that back through tape, that would be interesting. Maybe to do your compares you are using same sourced material, which I do not have.

I can guess that Lyra and VDH will have the closest dynamic and leading edge attack compared to tape, relative to the other carts.

Sorry, good points but you failed to understand my point. My question is not what we prefer - and you generally call "better" and why. My point is that considering you are comparing top cartridges, tonearms and turntables, a comparison of each of them with tape played in a top machine, that is supposed to be a step above in the sound reproduction hierarchy , would be very meaningful, almost mandatory.

Although I am just using old memories (I have never played them side by side) I think that the in general the SME30/SMEV sounded closer to the Studer A80 than the EMT927/SME 3012R. But yes, I prefer the EMT, this is a bizzarre hobby! Perhaps I should refer that cartrige is now the van den Hul. Anyway I am surprised that Mike's tapes left you cool. Everyone else I remember says otherwise.

IMHO we should not mix performance with sound reproduction. An old recipe for equipment evaluation is also listening to music that we do not have strong emotional connections with or do not usually appreciate. Sometimes some truth shows just in these pieces.

 

[kodomo]

In absence of specs I can’t tell you cutoff frequencies of this speaker but in room response without the subs is probably in the mid 30’s. There’s no possibility of relocation in this space choice is muddied sound or a very clear one with a little missing foundation in the very low frequencies.

david

They are not subs, they are the bass channel. This is simply not possible without any channels operating below a 110hz cutoff midbass! The Gamma II system with its bass section works to 30s but without any bass channel and only mid-bass, there is no way to reach down to 30hz within 3db to 6db relative to the rest of the spectrum. If it does, please do let me know how, maybe I am missing something with this setup.

 

[bonzo75]

Sorry, good points but you failed to understand my point. My question is not what we prefer - and you generally call "better" and why. My point is that considering you are comparing top cartridges, tonearms and turntables, a comparison of each of them with tape played in a top machine, that is supposed to be a step above in the sound reproduction hierarchy , would be very meaningful, almost mandatory.

Although I am just using old memories (I have never played them side by side) I think that the in general the SME30/SMEV sounded closer to the Studer A80 than the EMT927/SME 3012R. But yes, I prefer the EMT, this is a bizzarre hobby! Perhaps I should refer that cartrige is now the van den Hul. Anyway I am surprised that Mike's tapes left you cool. Everyone else I remember says otherwise.

IMHO we should not mix performance with sound reproduction. An old recipe for equipment evaluation is also listening to music that we do not have strong emotional connections with or do not usually appreciate. Sometimes some truth shows just in these pieces.

I agree with your last point. Sometimes the host plays something for me which I do not know and that serves as part of the compare. However, here, on day 3 and 4 we used a new box of records, not mine, and though it was classical and music I liked, the records I was not familiar with. In fact, when day 3 started, I thought Tang's system was sounding better only because of unfamiliar records. That's why, as mentioned in the report, I went back do mine to verify, before asking him if he changed anything.


Back to tape... As I mentioned, I don't think you can compare tape with a cartridge or a turntable set up. Unless you have same sourced material. Tape either sounds too much better, or not, so saying the AS with the Lyra sounded this way compared to tape, and zyx that way, is to me a wasted exercise. Carts are easy to compare on the same LP, same table, usually same arm, same phono. Tape with different material, different electronics, and a large + or - delta, does not give me the confidence I am making a proper judgement. I have tried that before and I found the exercise pointless. Maybe as a regular tape use you have better tape material for sick'm such tests

I am not surprised you liked EMT with vdh over the SME you had. It is less detailed but more lively and energetic like real music. And vdh is superbly natural. It is the best suspect to add the nuance that EMT needs. I don't need a tape compare to verify that. You don't either, that's why you like it. I would have loved to listen to that combo with the Soundlabs.

 

[PeterA]

In absence of specs I can’t tell you cutoff frequencies of this speaker but in room response without the subs is probably in the mid 30’s. There’s no possibility of relocation in this space choice is muddied sound or a very clear one with a little missing foundation in the very low frequencies.

david

David, this is exactly what my experience was when Jim Smith and I tried to integrate two JL Audio F110 subs with my Magico Mini II. That was the choice we had and we both preferred the very clear sound with a little missing bass foundation. I think the Mini IIs went down to about mid 30's in my room as well. The subs just muddied up the sound.

The same thing happened a few years later when Al M. and I tried to integrate a Revel sub with my Mini IIs.

 

[PeterA]

Although I am just using old memories (I have never played them side by side) I think that the in general the SME30/SMEV sounded closer to the Studer A80 than the EMT927/SME 3012R. But yes, I prefer the EMT, this is a bizzarre hobby!

This is a fascinating statement, Fransisco. I may already know the answer to this because you moved beyond the contemporary SME pairing, but which combination do you feel sounds more like live music? Which cartridge did you have on the SME V? Comparing reproduced to live of course relies heavily on memory and is not as direct a comparison as one format versus another in the same system with the same music during the same listening session.

I think asking Kedar why he did not listen to tape at Tango's is like asking Ron why he did not listen to digital at Mike's. People may not understand their reasons or agree with them, but they both did what they did for specific reasons.

 

[ddk]

They are not subs, they are the bass channel. This is simply not possible without any channels operating below a 110hz cutoff midbass! The Gamma II system with its bass section works to 30s but without any bass channel and only mid-bass, there is no way to reach down to 30hz within 3db to 6db relative to the rest of the spectrum. If it does, please do let me know how, maybe I am missing something with this setup.

Manufacturer hasn't provided specs but cutoff is certainly below 110hz, and yes there probably is a drop-off in the bass by around 50hz. This is setup by ear no measurements taken going by what I know and what I heard. If I recall correctly the digital xover range was 85hz to 50hz like most HT subs but Tang should correct me if I'm wrong.

david

 

[ddk]

David, this is exactly what my experience was when Jim Smith and I tried to integrate two JL Audio F110 subs with my Magico Mini II. That was the choice we had and we both preferred the very clear sound with a little missing bass foundation. I think the Mini IIs went down to about mid 30's in my room as well. The subs just muddied up the sound.

The same thing happened a few years later when Al M. and I tried to integrate a Revel sub with my Mini IIs.

Subs aren't easy to integrate, you need the space for proper placement and IME active digital ones present even more of a challenge than passive ones.

david

 

[microstrip]

Subs aren't easy to integrate, you need the space for proper placement and IME active digital ones present even more of a challenge than passive ones.

david

Yes to all, particularly to space. But if your room has the space to allow bass to develop naturally subs can be a great experience, improving sound all over the spectrum.

Most of the time I had poor experiences with the subs, but a few were really outstanding.

 

[microstrip]

This is a fascinating statement, Fransisco. I may already know the answer to this because you moved beyond the contemporary SME pairing, but which combination do you feel sounds more like live music? Which cartridge did you have on the SME V? Comparing reproduced to live of course relies heavily on memory and is not as direct a comparison as one format versus another in the same system with the same music during the same listening session.

I think asking Kedar why he did not listen to tape at Tango's is like asking Ron why he did not listen to digital at Mike's. People may not understand their reasons or agree with them, but they both did what they did for specific reasons.

The only cartridge that I shared between them was the Sumiko Palo Santos. Curiously the music I listen mostly with vinyl is music that I find difficult to assess as being more or less closer to real - jazz and light vocal, so I usually rank vinyl reproduction simply on therms of enjoyment. For classical my preference goes other way ...

The question concerning tape is very important IMHO. Tape is a step above vinyl in the chain - unless we talk about direct cuts. I am not astonished that some people prefer vinyl to tape - tape is like digital in the sense that we can change very little in its reproduction, while vinyl allows us to deeply modify/process the signal to our preferences.

I must say that I have learned as much from audio professionals, such as Fred Thal and recording engineers using the latest top digital workstations, as I have learned from seasoned hard core audiophiles.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes on jazz (Brief Mark Murphy I listened to) and vocals EMT as equal to AS except AS was more extended at top with vocals (As if mouth opening wider). Impact of each note was also very high. For such music I would be very happy with an EMT (at least one modded like Tang's)

 

[kodomo]

Once again these were not subs but the bass channels so it does not compare to adding subs to a speaker. It is like not using the bass woofers on the speaker itself

 

[PeterA]

Yes on jazz (Brief Mark Murphy I listened to) and vocals EMT as equal to AS except AS was more extended at top with vocals (As if mouth opening wider). Impact of each note was also very high. For such music I would be very happy with an EMT (at least one modded like Tang's)

Tang says the EMT a more transparent phono, so that too may be contributing to the sonic attributes you ascribe to the AS, in terms of HF extension with vocals. Also the Axiom vs. 3012R arms on each table.

 

[PeterA]

Th

Once again these were not subs but the bass channels so it does not compare to adding subs to a speaker. It is like not using the bass woofers on the speaker itself

Thanks for making the distinction clear. I was definitely attempting to integrate separate subs with my stand alone two way monitor speakers. Are you suggesting that Tang's office/room is not large enough to support his full horn speaker system as designed?

 

[kodomo]

No, his room is large enough but he chooses not to have the bass channels if I understood correctly. This made me wonder what is going on there and if there is something I am missing. The response would be similar to what I have posted or maybe 10hz-20hz lower knee than mine depending on the room and the midbass crossover but still it would be expected that a lot would be missing. After all the lowest channel working is a 110hz cutoff mid-bass horn.

 

[jeff1225]

Seems it's hard for us to agree on anything
I love rock on horns. It's simply addictive. The rawer, the better. We had a pair of old Duos in the previous store, set up in a room in the back, and I'd often lock myself there and crank the sh*t out of them, either with the little Audiopax amps or with a darTZeel LHC-208 integrated. FUN FUN FUN!
OTOH, for classical, they were nowhere near as fun.
100% of my clients with AGs listen mostly to rock and some jazz. Very little to no classical.

There was something very special going on in that back room with the Blue Duo Omega's and Audiopax amps. I could have listened to that system forever.

 

[Al M.]

Seems it's hard for us to agree on anything
I love rock on horns. It's simply addictive. The rawer, the better. We had a pair of old Duos in the previous store, set up in a room in the back, and I'd often lock myself there and crank the sh*t out of them, either with the little Audiopax amps or with a darTZeel LHC-208 integrated. FUN FUN FUN!
OTOH, for classical, they were nowhere near as fun.
100% of my clients with AGs listen mostly to rock and some jazz. Very little to no classical.

Why were they nowhere near as fun for classical?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jeffrey, my good mate here Blue58 has an exemplary sound running Duos Omegas off his own design 45 tubes amps. We listen to a fair amount of rock and electronica on them, and they want for v little.

 

[bonzo75]

Tang says the EMT a more transparent phono, so that too may be contributing to the sonic attributes you ascribe to the AS, in terms of HF extension with vocals. Also the Axiom vs. 3012R arms on each table.

Yes I asked tang about that. He had the EMT phono on the CMS rack with the EMT arm before. He said the table characteristics remained. I have done an EMT compare to the AS before at David's place through the same phono (lamm). Also, I heard the techdas through the same phono as the EMT here. The characteristics I am describing can be attributed to the EMT table