You can't make this stuff up...

[mep]

Money makes money and money protects money.

 

[ddk]

PS: By the way, this is also why the Affordable Care Act is so screwed up. It is not, as some will tell you, a law railroaded through by one party. Tons of compromises are written into that law, and came from by politicians on both sides of the aisle, under the guiding hand of the insurance, pharma and corporate healthcare lobbies, making the stinking dog's breakfast of a law we have today. Both sides got what their benefactors wanted - preservation of private insurance, preservation of drug company profits, preservation of a bloated network of corporate healthcare providers, preservation of a hierarchy that puts administrators and insurance companies above doctors and nurses, a new customer base that's 40 million strong....and a law so hobbled that it will take a decade to make it effective, in the unlikely event that it survives.

The fact that, in the end, one side of the aisle didn't for for it after they got what they wanted is just political positioning and theater.

Tim

That's not true at all Tim! I'd like to remind you of this shameful moment how a law affecting 300 million people was rammed down our throats by one party.

 

[edorr]

That's not true at all Tim! I'd like to remind you of this shameful moment how a law affecting 300 million people was rammed down our throats by one party.

Regrettably, not pretty but only way to get it done. GOP single political objective was to make Obama fail, Obama got elected on heathcare reform platform - so the process was predictable. The individual mandate was designed by the heritage foundation (Romney care anyone). If you don't have a negotiating partner that is acting in good faith, all you can do is ram stuff down their throat.

Only thing the conservatives have not blamed him for in five years is violating Pakistan sovereignty to kill Osama Bin Laden, because that position did not poll to well. Screw them.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

That's not true at all Tim! I'd like to remind you of this shameful moment how a law affecting 300 million people was rammed down our throats by one party.

No, you just reminded me of a political foot in mouth moment. There are a million of them. And there are a couple of hundred concessions to conservatives in ACA. I can't help you see that truth, but it's all over that law. If it were a liberal, Democratic law shoved down the opposition's throat, it would be a single payer system. Period. It is, instead, a pro-business healthcare law (it hurts too much to call it reform) that gets nothing but the most critical needs -- portability, an end to coverage limits and pre-existing conditions, expanded coverage -- addressed at the expense of the American people and to the benefit of private insurance. It's got GOP, with the usual collusion by the Dems, written all over it. And don't get me wrong, I'm not anti business, but this (American private health insurance) is not a business that deserves our "pro." This is a business that was given a decade (after the failed Clinton HC proposals) to fix the problem itself, to find a way through the private markets, to get the get coverage to most Americans and get the cost of healthcare under control, and they made things much worse for everyone - doctors, clinics, nurses, patients, the American economy -- everyone but themselves. The worst thing about ACA in my view? It fails to throw those bastards to the curb.

Tim

 

[ddk]

Regrettably, not pretty but only way to get it done.

Not a pretty moment? So the law be damned and its fine to lie as long as you agree with it?

GOP single political objective was to make Obama fail, Obama got elected on heathcare reform platform - so the process was predictable. The individual mandate was designed by the heritage foundation (Romney care anyone). If you don't have a negotiating partner that is acting in good faith, all you can do is ram stuff down their throat.

Only thing the conservatives have not blamed him for in five years is violating Pakistan sovereignty to kill Osama Bin Laden, because that position did not poll to well. Screw them.

Its not screw them, its screw me, my family and millions of people who disagree with you and your position, where do you think we're going to end up from here as as a nation?

david

 

[ddk]

No, you just reminded me of a political foot in mouth moment. There are a million of them. And there are a couple of hundred concessions to conservatives in ACA. I can't help you see that truth, but it's all over that law. If it were a liberal, Democratic law shoved down the opposition's throat, it would be a single payer system. Period. It is, instead, a pro-business healthcare law (it hurts too much to call it reform) that gets nothing but the most critical needs -- portability, an end to coverage limits and pre-existing conditions, expanded coverage -- addressed at the expense of the American people and to the benefit of private insurance. It's got GOP, with the usual collusion by the Dems, written all over it. And don't get me wrong, I'm not anti business, but this (American private health insurance) is not a business that deserves our "pro." This is a business that was given a decade (after the failed Clinton HC proposals) to fix the problem itself, to find a way through the private markets, to get the get coverage to most Americans and get the cost of healthcare under control, and they made things much worse for everyone - doctors, clinics, nurses, patients, the American economy -- everyone but themselves. The worst thing about ACA in my view? It fails to throw those bastards to the curb.

Tim

This was a moment of truthful admission and you call it a foot in the mouth moment? Do I need to read any further...

 

[jazdoc]

Regrettably, not pretty but only way to get it done. GOP single political objective was to make Obama fail, Obama got elected on heathcare reform platform - so the process was predictable. The individual mandate was designed by the heritage foundation (Romney care anyone). If you don't have a negotiating partner that is acting in good faith, all you can do is ram stuff down their throat.

Only thing the conservatives have not blamed him for in five years is violating Pakistan sovereignty to kill Osama Bin Laden, because that position did not poll to well. Screw them.

Ahh, the meme that the Heritage Foundation was for the individual mandate before they were against it. Here is the reference to the original paper by Paul Butler:http://healthcarereform.procon.org/sourcefiles/1992_heritage_consumer_choice_health_plan.pdf.

As the Heritage Foundation noted in their amicus brief to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals:

If citations to policy papers were subject to the same rules as legal citations, then the Heritage position quoted by the Department of Justice would have a red flag indicating it had been reversed. . . . Heritage has stopped supporting any insurance mandate.

Heritage policy experts never supported an unqualified mandate like that in the PPACA [ObamaCare]. Their prior support for a qualified mandate was limited to catastrophic coverage (true insurance that is precisely what the PPACA forbids), coupled with tax relief for all families and other reforms that are conspicuously absent from the PPACA. Since then, a growing body of research has provided a strong basis to conclude that any government insurance mandate is not only unnecessary, but is a bad policy option. Moreover, Heritage’s legal scholars have been consistent in explaining that the type of mandate in the PPACA is unconstitutional.

Unlike conservatives who only change positions for selfish political gain, Progressives "evolve". To wit candidate Obama in 2008:

 

[edorr]

Its not screw them, its screw me, my family and millions of people who disagree with you and your position, where do you think we're going to end up from here as as a nation?

david

Libertarian / Conservative hysteria over Obamacare is analogous to evangelical hysteria over gay marriage. Civilization as we know it will come to an end, US society is doomed and we're all going to hell in a hand basket. There were probably similar reactions against desegregation laws, and institution of social security. Big yawn.

10 years from we will have universal healthcare (in my estimation Obamacare changed beyond recognition - probably single payer system). The sun will still rise in the west, guys like you and me will still be able to afford to spend inordinate amounts of money on audio systems, pissing away lots of time on social media, while the main beneficiaries of universal healthcare are busting their ass for peanuts. If you don't like it make sure your guy gets voted into office, and come up with something better. If all else fails, move to the mosquito coast.

 

[edorr]

Ahh, the meme that the Heritage Foundation was for the individual mandate before they were against it. Here is the reference to the original paper by Paul Butler.

As the Heritage Foundation noted in their amicus brief to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals:

Unlike conservatives who "flip flop" when changing a position, Progressives "evolve". To wit candidate Obama in 2008:

To be honest, I don't really give a rats ass about what Obama, the Heritage foundation or Mitt Romney says or thinks about the individual mandate. I personally think it is an imminently sensible idea, that works very well in many other places. If you disagree, vote a guy in office that scraps it. This is called democracy - warts and all.

 

[DaveyF]

No, you just reminded me of a political foot in mouth moment. There are a million of them. And there are a couple of hundred concessions to conservatives in ACA. I can't help you see that truth, but it's all over that law. If it were a liberal, Democratic law shoved down the opposition's throat, it would be a single payer system. Period. It is, instead, a pro-business healthcare law (it hurts too much to call it reform) that gets nothing but the most critical needs -- portability, an end to coverage limits and pre-existing conditions, expanded coverage -- addressed at the expense of the American people and to the benefit of private insurance. It's got GOP, with the usual collusion by the Dems, written all over it. And don't get me wrong, I'm not anti business, but this (American private health insurance) is not a business that deserves our "pro." This is a business that was given a decade (after the failed Clinton HC proposals) to fix the problem itself, to find a way through the private markets, to get the get coverage to most Americans and get the cost of healthcare under control, and they made things much worse for everyone - doctors, clinics, nurses, patients, the American economy -- everyone but themselves. The worst thing about ACA in my view? It fails to throw those bastards to the curb.

Tim

Perhaps your best post ever Tim....very well said indeed.

 

[ddk]

Perhaps your best post ever Tim....very well said indeed.

Problem is that since nobody was ALLOWED to read it, its all conjecture on Tim's part!

 

[DaveyF]

Problem is that since nobody was ALLOWED to read it, its all conjecture on Tim's part!

or on yours.

 

[jazdoc]

Problem is that since nobody was ALLOWED to read it, its all conjecture on Tim's part!

I disagree. They were allowed to read it; they chose not to.

As Rep. John Conyers admitted it a moment of disarming honesty "I love those members, they get up and say, 'Read the bill'. What good is reading the bill if it's a thousand pages and you don't have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?"

Of course this is the same Mr. Conyers who was captured on Youtube "reading" Playboy on a plane flight. Perhaps if Obamacare legislation had included a pictorial of "Girls of HHS" he might have been stimulated to actually do his job.

But as Tim and Rep. Conyers alluded, a 2,000+ page bill referencing dozens of other densely written statutes that no one understands nor bothers to read, almost defines the death of representative government. As James Madison noted in Federalist #62

"It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is today, can guess what it will be tomorrow...Another effect of public instability is the unreasonable advantage it gives to the sagacious, the enterprising, and the moneyed few over the industrious and uniformed mass of the people. Every new regulation concerning commerce or revenue, or in any way affecting the value of the different species of property, presents a new harvest to those who watch the change, and can trace its consequences; a harvest, reared not by themselves, but by the toils and cares of the great body of their fellow-citizens. This is a state of things in which it may be said with some truth that laws are made for the few, not for the many."

 

[zztop7]

In my little city, Bellevue, WA; I know of 2 previously successful businesses that finally gave up being squeezed by the government.
Obama Care boulder broke the camel's back.
One is closed & gone.
The other will be gone at the end of the March.
??? Is this progress ???
"Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" should now be "Where Have All the Small Businesses Gone?"

zz

 

[Whatmore]

Actually, your examples are along a continuum and point to a fundamental problem with government's attempt to mitigate the consequences of failure in society. For a free market economy to function properly, there must be a balance between reward and failure. The threat of potential failure tempers excessively risky behavior. By apparently limiting the consequences of failure, be it at large financial institutions, i.e. "too big to fail" or at an individual level, the government skews this delicate balance and shifts risk to third parties (the so called "forgotten man"). One could argue that it's no big deal to mitigate failure at the individual level, but when there are 300 million+ individuals in a society, the risks become wide-spread and less obvious; with the unintended consequence of compounding risks. The ultimate irony is that these well-intended attempts to minimize individual and isolated business failures serve only to create larger, systemic risks make our economy inherently more unstable.

I think the unintended risks brought about by looking after the wealthy whilst not looking after those who need it are immense.

 

[ddk]

or on yours.

There's no conjecture on my part, the government has taken over our healthcare insurance market and 1/5th of the economy and there are negative consequences that people are facing today, you just can't or won't see it...

 

[DaveyF]

There's no conjecture on my part, the government has taken over our healthcare insurance market and 1/5th of the economy and there are negative consequences that people are facing today, you just can't or won't see it...

David from Utah, is that what you really believe! IMO, the only unfortunate thing about this whole mess is that the government did NOT take over the healthcare insurance market entirely. On the contrary, we are left with the worst of both worlds...BIG pharma controlling the same lobbyists as ever; and the exact same corrupt insurance companies ( private) as before controlling the whole industry--BUT this time getting a VERY nice subsidy from Uncle Sam to insure those that they did NOT want to insure before. In other words the same wolf's as ever are guarding the hen's coop.
I'm off this thread...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This was a moment of truthful admission and you call it a foot in the mouth moment? Do I need to read any further...

Maybe. If you believe that ACA was the sole invention of one side of the aisle, that the "conservatives" in the discussion got nothing the wanted in the law and operated in good faith, that, for that matter, "big government" has anything to do with American party politics beyond campaign slogans, and that America has the best healthcare system in the world, you might need to read further. Or maybe not. If you're a true libertarian, you believe in an ideology so far out of touch with America that it is never going to get more than a Congressional seat or two, and never going to solve anything. You can sit on the side and disagree with everything. What good is that going to do for you, your family and the nation? Better to read further, I think.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There's no conjecture on my part, the government has taken over our healthcare insurance market and 1/5th of the economy and there are negative consequences that people are facing today, you just can't or won't see it...

This is not what's happening. It's not even close.

Tim

 

[ddk]

This is not what's happening. It's not even close.

Tim

Then what is happening Tim? Are we not getting screwed?