ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[Mike Lavigne]

been traveling these last few weeks on and off so not much focused listening time. this past week got home late Sunday and was busy all week, but then had a WBF member visit Friday morning, through last night. we started with the ML3's mid-morning Friday, did 6-7 hours with those amps, then before we broke for dinner I switched in the VAC Statement 450's in, and let them warm up during dinner, got back about 8pm and listened until midnight. then Saturday morning about 11:30am started back with the VAC's (which had been warmed up from 9am) until about 2:30pm when I switched in the Ironman dart 458's, and we left for lunch. got back an hour later and we listened until about 7pm; when the wives joined us for dinner. now this morning i'm listening to the darts. and then later this week i'm off to Salt Lake City for another trip......then my traveling is over for a while, thank god!!!

I have to say it was quite revelatory to spend so much quality concentrated listening time to three so distinctive amplifiers consecutively in my system, during a continuous time. I feel each amplifier was presented in it's most favorable light. I really never sat in the sweet spot at all; my visitor switched from the front sweet spot (my preference) to the seat behind that spot. so my perceptions are a bit limited in that sense. my visitor will likely post his own views later as he is now traveling. for my part we had a great time, and I enjoyed the shared musical truths, and our interactions. this is the best part of our hobby. by his choice we did not listen to any digital during our sessions; it was mostly vinyl with the GFS-Durand Telos Sapphire-NVS-dart pre phono, and a little 1/4" and 1/2" tape on the Studers.

my significant amplifier take away is that musical truth trumps all. period. for my personal sonic compass, and my particular room and system. I can like added sauce, even love it.....but if it comes between me and the musical massage then......well; can we just get back to the reality? now!

i'm not sure how relevant this viewpoint is to the broader hifi world. since amplifiers are part of a whole system-speaker-room-taste-music genre' equation, unless you have completely taken the whole room thing all the way, is musical truth from an amplifier what you want? and what might be musical truth with a small room and limited frequency range capability, or maybe limited music genre's, is a different thing than what is musical truth in a large room with unlimited frequency range and large scale classical.

a few comments on the amplifiers.

--ML3's. definitely about musical truth when limited in genre and recording. with some limits. while listening to the ML3's you are not aware that they are a bit closed in on top if kept with more intimate music. with the MM7 bass tower integration there is zero sense of any low frequency limitations. and the fact that ML3's are tube amplifiers does not jump out. it's just music. so real. so non-hifi. totally involving. but then push them past their limits and they become pieces and the magic gets compromised. this a crazy good amplifier.

--VAC Statement 450's. space and scale, lovely bass, lots of authority and heft. relatively transparent, holographic and palpable. they do everything well. no limitations. compliments every type of music. gets into the ML3 territory, if not quite ML3 neighborhood, in intimate music.

but......don't A/B it with the big darts in a fully sorted out system (with someone who shares my musical compass). but how many big tube users would have a set of dart 458's on hand to try? likely none.

--dart 458's. low noise. open. space. refined. truth. open. agile. tonally rich and harmonically right. open. when I was listening to large scale classical on the big VAC's I heard it rounding things on peaks relative to my dart 458 reference in my head. would others hear those passages in that context? unlikely. i'm used to those 'ultra' moments soaring and completely developing with the excitement and sparkle of real music. the ML3's can do that on small scale music effectively. but on large scale music every thing comes into play and I've only heard the big darts do that right, and only in my system. and A/B'ing with the VAC's the enhanced liquidity of big tubes (so desired by many) becomes an artifact to this listener. and this added liquidity does not really intrude in the same way with the ML3's on small scale music.

as I sit here today listening to some redbook digital on the MSB as i type (I've play-listed 3 Elliot Smith albums) I just love the unvarnished truth of the big darts. I know that whatever the music throws at the darts, it will come completely through as musical truth......yet also knowing that the ML3's would present an altered musical truth with a few limits.

I love all three of these amplifiers, and i'd say 10 people with 10 different systems and musical preferences might preference rank them differently. I could see that the big VAC's would be the right single amp solution for many for various reasons. for me it's the dart, then the ML3's as the alternate view.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, nothing much has changed in yr overall conclusion, even after such an in depth comparison.
The Lamms and Vacs do a lot very well, some things extremely well, and in these areas are a match or even exceed the Darts.
But in the grand scheme, over the whole spectrum of performance, the Darts are more consistent, and critically keep on going where the tube amps just start to harden or congeal at peaks of musical info.
You’re right, the vast majority, if not the whole of the rest of us, won’t get to these zones, and so the tube amps would do us just fine, and since they outperform outside of these zones, many of us will still prefer the uniqueness of what tubes bring.

 

[bonzo75]

So it sounds like the least amount of time was spent with the Dartzeel over the weekend.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So it sounds like the least amount of time was spent with the Dartzeel over the weekend.

yes, that is true. .........it did not really take long to understand what the dart did to separate it from the others. we played the Classic 45rpm 4 disc of the Reiner Mussorgsky 'Pictures'; disc 4 'Great Gates of Kiev' at warp 9 and that sort of sealed the deal (for me).

and.......all day today it's been the dart......and i'm feeling like i'm back in the saddle again after 3 weeks apart from the dart. but that is just my take.

but I will allow my visitor to speak for himself.......I don't want to muddy the water of his perspectives.

any of these amps would be a great choice assuming a reasonable speaker<->system<->room<->genre' fit. but if you want it all, and I mean it ALL!!!! then it's the dart. (my personal viewpoint--YMMV).

 

[bonzo75]

Did you play the Zep and Beethoven's 9th?

 

[DaveyF]

yes, that is true. .........it did not really take long to understand what the dart did to separate it from the others. we played the Classic 45rpm 4 disc of the Reiner Mussorgsky 'Pictures'; disc 4 'Great Gates of Kiev' at warp 9 and that sort of sealed the deal (for me).

and.......all day today it's been the dart......and i'm feeling like i'm back in the saddle again after 3 weeks apart from the dart. but that is just my take.

but I will allow my visitor to speak for himself.......I don't want to muddy the water of his perspectives.

any of these amps would be a great choice assuming a reasonable speaker<->system<->room<->genre' fit. but if you want it all, and I mean it ALL!!!! then it's the dart. (my personal viewpoint--YMMV).

Mike, perhaps your opinion of the Dart is influenced by the mix in which it finds itself. IOW, with other gear and in another room, your opinion may change toward the tube amp(s) and away from the Dart amps. It could be that your EA speakers are more ss friendly than tube friendly; which would actually make some sense to me. OTOH, maybe you simply prefer the 'flavor' that a great ss amp brings to the mix vs. a great tube amp. ( which BTW there is absolutely nothing wrong with, it's all good). It is great to have the option of changing the flavor whenever you so desire, which I why I also have both a ss amp and a tube amp.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Did you play the Zep and Beethoven's 9th?

we did play the Solti 9th on the darts (it was superb--my take), but my visitor decided no on the Zep. and I did not force the issue.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, perhaps your opinion of the Dart is influenced by the mix in which it finds itself. IOW, with other gear and in another room, your opinion may change toward the tube amp(s) and away from the Dart amps. It could be that your EA speakers are more ss friendly than tube friendly; which would actually make some sense to me. OTOH, maybe you simply prefer the 'flavor' that a great ss amp brings to the mix vs. a great tube amp. ( which BTW there is absolutely nothing wrong with, it's all good). It is great to have the option of changing the flavor whenever you so desire, which I why I also have both a ss amp and a tube amp.

here we go again (after 1327 posts mostly dealing with that).

my 'opinion' is that there would not be a more tube friendly system or speaker than the MM7's with their sympathetic bass integration, reduced low frequency demand from the tube amp, and easy load. period. even a horn system would fail with bass integration and extension (with very, very few exceptions). and any cone system, unless it took the signal from the passive speaker terminal, would be less coherent in the bass. the MM7's are top to bottom a very neutral transducer.

in 14 hours of listening to tubes, there was not a moment of non coherency or evidence of any aspect not working. we see a clear window to the music. each amp was really excellent in being itself.

so no, I absolutely reject that argument.

you can make the case of a higher efficiency speaker having advantages with the ML3's in many ways, but not all ways. yes; you would have more dynamics but lose lots of bass capability.

you can make the case that in a very small room the ML3's might be able to have sufficient power to do larger scale music but I would not agree. it just cannot compete in that stuff. you can make the argument that the dart pre synergizes with the dart 458's to some degree, I don't view that as significant in the larger picture. I could use the RCA interconnects between the darts and the overall impressions would not change.

it is as fair a view into this as is possible. we get to choose which we like best and in what ways.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I’m minded to ask you these qs in different ways.
Eg, after several weeks of getting to know the Lamms, are there any favourite albums you’d choose to listen to from now on through the ML3s rather than the Darts?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I’m minded to ask you these qs in different ways.
Eg, after several weeks of getting to know the Lamms, are there any favourite albums you’d choose to listen to from now on through the ML3s rather than the Darts?

well, I could generally point to any vocals or small combo jazz and easily point to the ML3's as an astonishingly superb amplifier; likely at the very tip top of the heap for that stuff. there are aspects of the ML3 which wrap around my brain on that music......which was exactly what I expected to happen. and why I laid down the cash for it. the darts do great with that stuff too, but were I choosing just that music by itself I would likely choose the ML3's.

later I will try to list a few that I recall as standing out......but there are so many. maybe 33-40% of my listening.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, surely this was always going to be the case? I mean when is the last time you went to a show, entered a room where the tubes were glowing, and they played Metallica Enter Sandman, or Holst Mars, or Muse SuperMassive Black Hole, or Carmina Burana? Basically never.
And in your system and room, where there is no hiding place, and gear will be shown for what it is, and you push your sound higher, longer and deeper, tubes were never likely to beat yr Darts across the board.
I guess it’s nice to have the luxury of the Lamms when those appropriate albums grace yr listening.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, surely this was always going to be the case? I mean when is the last time you went to a show, entered a room where the tubes were glowing, and they played Metallica Enter Sandman, or Holst Mars, or Muse SuperMassive Black Hole, or Carmina Burana? Basically never.
And in your system and room, where there is no hiding place, and gear will be shown for what it is, and you push your sound higher, longer and deeper, tubes were never likely to beat yr Darts across the board.
I guess it’s nice to have the luxury of the Lamms when those appropriate albums grace yr listening.

the VAC Statement 450's (or other big tubes) have no trouble with authority or scale, and their added liquidity do allow them to be more listenable in less than perfect rooms and signal paths......or particular tastes that prefer that view. so it's not tubes per-se that are the issue.

but if you want utter truth and musicality with big music then yes, the darts are 'it' for me (in my experience).

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, do you view this amps dichotomy as a parallel to something like running a warmer, more euphonic Koetsu and a more even across the board Goldfinger?
That Koetsu great for more intimate music, the Goldfinger better for stretching out?

 

[bonzo75]

The koetsu reputation is great for intimate music, the cartridge is not.

 

[microstrip]

yes, that is true. .........it did not really take long to understand what the dart did to separate it from the others. we played the Classic 45rpm 4 disc of the Reiner Mussorgsky 'Pictures'; disc 4 'Great Gates of Kiev' at warp 9 and that sort of sealed the deal (for me). (...)

We enter the extremely subjective field, where there are no references except our enjoyment. This type of music at warp 9 with the NHB458 probably means you were listening at levels louder that the conductor, watts do not lie ...

My best experience with NH458 was long ago with the Magico M5 listening to Beethoven concertos in a large room in an old building - plenty of wood and plaster walls - listening louder than life. We could listen to the texture of strings and the organization of instrument sections like if we were seeing the movement of players in front of us. However, the medium of the Magico broke at the end of the day ...

I also sometimes do it in my system, particularly with friends, but for short time - 400 watts peak with 94 dB/W large speakers is loud! It is impressive, but I can not say it is real. However, it feeds our soul, as people say.

It is known that recording professionals listen loud just to get all the information. If you really like to keep this possibility and peaks over 1kW, you really need high quality SS power.

 

[DaveyF]

here we go again (after 1327 posts mostly dealing with that).

my 'opinion' is that there would not be a more tube friendly system or speaker than the MM7's with their sympathetic bass integration, reduced low frequency demand from the tube amp, and easy load. period. even a horn system would fail with bass integration and extension (with very, very few exceptions). and any cone system, unless it took the signal from the passive speaker terminal, would be less coherent in the bass. the MM7's are top to bottom a very neutral transducer.

in 14 hours of listening to tubes, there was not a moment of non coherency or evidence of any aspect not working. we see a clear window to the music. each amp was really excellent in being itself.

so no, I absolutely reject that argument.

you can make the case of a higher efficiency speaker having advantages with the ML3's in many ways, but not all ways. yes; you would have more dynamics but lose lots of bass capability.

you can make the case that in a very small room the ML3's might be able to have sufficient power to do larger scale music but I would not agree. it just cannot compete in that stuff. you can make the argument that the dart pre synergizes with the dart 458's to some degree, I don't view that as significant in the larger picture. I could use the RCA interconnects between the darts and the overall impressions would not change.

it is as fair a view into this as is possible. we get to choose which we like best and in what ways.

Not sure why you get so testy, Mike. Ok, so your speakers are the only one's for you for now and forever, I get that. But hey, what's with the attitude?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not sure why you get so testy, Mike. Ok, so your speakers are the only one's for you for now and forever, I get that. But hey, what's with the attitude?

the credibility of my perceptions about these amps continue to be marginalized by people questioning my system compatibility and synergy. and I see it exactly the opposite. I feel you will never hear the ML3's sound better than how they sound in my system. and the same with the big VAC's.

only that for all music I prefer the darts.

how would you interpret these comments?

Mike, perhaps your opinion of the Dart is influenced by the mix in which it finds itself. IOW, with other gear and in another room, your opinion may change toward the tube amp(s) and away from the Dart amps. It could be that your EA speakers are more ss friendly than tube friendly; which would actually make some sense to me. OTOH, maybe you simply prefer the 'flavor' that a great ss amp brings to the mix vs. a great tube amp. ( which BTW there is absolutely nothing wrong with, it's all good). It is great to have the option of changing the flavor whenever you so desire, which I why I also have both a ss amp and a tube amp.

I've already said for certain music I prefer the ML3's. it's musical truth I'm after, not an amp topography.

as far as 'testy', my tolerance appetite likely abandoned me at about the 1100 post point.

 

[DaveyF]

the credibility of my perceptions about these amps continue to be marginalized by people questioning my system compatibility and synergy. and I see it exactly the opposite. I feel you will never hear the ML3's sound better than how they sound in my system. and the same with the big VAC's.

only that for all music I prefer the darts.

how would you interpret these comments?



I've already said for certain music I prefer the ML3's. it's musical truth I'm after, not an amp topography.

as far as 'testy', my tolerance appetite likely abandoned me at about the 1100 post point.

Hold on there. You may well like your Darts better with your system, and I for one am not contesting that ( or your perceptions of how these amps sound in your particular system). However, I don't happen to believe that the ML3's ( or the VAC's for that matter) cannot sound better in another system ( on the music that you now prefer the Darts on)....we/you have no way of knowing that. Just like we/you have no way of knowing that your speakers are not more synergistic with your Dart's...but that's not to say another speaker and system would be more synergistic with a different kind of amp/speaker/room interaction. All of your opinions are certainly valid in regards to your particular system, I am certainly NOT disputing that fact. But do realize that sweeping ascertations are not necessarily accurate for all systems in regards to these amps. That's my point, and my only point. Naturally, all IMHO.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hold on there. You may well like your Darts better with your system, and I for one am not contesting that ( or your perceptions of how these amps sound in your particular system). However, I don't happen to believe that the ML3's ( or the VAC's for that matter) cannot sound better in another system ( on the music that you now prefer the Darts on)....we/you have no way of knowing that. Just like we/you have no way of knowing that your speakers are not more synergistic with your Dart's...but that's not to say another speaker and system would be more synergistic with a different kind of amp/speaker/room interaction. All of your opinions are certainly valid in regards to your particular system, I am certainly NOT disputing that fact. But do realize that sweeping ascertations are not necessarily accurate for all systems in regards to these amps. That's my point, and my only point. Naturally, all IMHO.

fair enough Davey, and nothing personal meant by my reactions, just more my general feelings toward comments diminishing my own perceptions. some of those are more reasoned than others. the phrase I used back a few hundred posts was 'cone of frustration'......which you got a taste of.

 

[DaveyF]

fair enough Davey, and nothing personal meant by my reactions, just more my general feelings toward comments diminishing my own perceptions. some of those are more reasoned than others. the phrase I used back a few hundred posts was 'cone of frustration'......which you got a taste of.

Ok Mike. I got it, and I get it . All good. Have a great day...