ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[morricab]

certainly large scale systems.

what uber digital did you try in those rooms? and what different amplifiers? which was the point Micro and I were making......that more power made significant differences on the musical equation with large scale digital music.

I didn't have "uber" digital at that time...but I will throw the question back to you...why would uber digital suddenly require high power?? This is simply not logical and you haven't given even a reasonable explanation as to why the two things are somehow connected.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I have. These SET100 and the Koda K70 really left an indelible impression on my heart. SET100 kings of transparency and speed, K70 texture and tone colour.

 

[KeithR]

I think what people constantly lose out of sight in these discussions, Mike, is that you have a really large room. This makes for disproportionately (i.e. not linear to room size) higher demands on all gear for effortlessness and dynamics, regardless of any speaker sensitivities. driver topologies and such. My system can play very dynamically in my medium sized room, but it just couldn't play that well in a significantly larger one. I think not much gear can play well in a really large room.

+1. And its clear the Lamms can't drive the EAs satisfactorily in it. All the talk about six of one, half of another Lamms/Darts is kinda pointless as is talk about ceramics, Wilsons, and whatever other excuse there is. But that's just my uninformed opinion and I haven't quite yet made the pilgrimage to Mikes room (which needs to happen)

 

[morricab]

Why cannot you and Brad let Mike be happy with the ML3 for what it does on the types of music on which Mike chooses to use it? No matter how much he tells you he likes X and why he likes X and that he does not want to give up what X does better than anything else, you are still trying to sell him Y. You both keep trying to answer a question that Mike has not asked.

Marc, you know I had hoped that the NAT Magma New SE would solve my high-power SET puzzle, but completely theoretically and subjectively and without basis in user experience data points I decided I could not get comfortable with that amplifier. I just feel that with NAT's on-the-fly parts change modus operandi I would not be able to listen to the music comfortably and relaxedly while watching those two GM100 rocket engines glowing lava red.

Ron, how am I preventing Mike from enjoying anything...you realize the internet is virtual, right? Its not like I am going over to Mikes and unplugging his darts grabbing them an running out the door.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I didn't have "uber" digital at that time...but I will throw the question back to you...why would uber digital suddenly require high power?? This is simply not logical and you haven't given even a reasonable explanation as to why the two things are somehow connected.

well. if you fundamentally don't view that digital can be 'uber' (reading between the lines) then not sure where this line of discussion can go. but.....here we go.....as digital gets better and better (bare with me here) it can take every advantage from higher signal path advantages. and especially large scale digital seems to benefit from the greater capacity of higher power amplification with more note expansion and soundstage expansion......something analog sort of does on it's own to a degree (whether that is an attribute, or artifact might be a question). so having lots of headroom in the amplification takes the most finely rendered large scale digital to higher heights. but more normal digital becomes a bit of 'more of the same' and not quite the same result. it does not have that analog sort of 'lift-off' in the same way.

like a door opening with higher levels of digital that with more 'normal' levels of digital you don't see that same door.

Micro and I have never discussed this before, so I don't know if this is what he was referring to, as this is just what I hear with the MSB Select II and the SGM server (Taiko Tana does not hurt either). these days I cannot listen to enough digital large scale classical music. i'm addicted to it.

and maybe i'm delusional.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, how am I preventing Mike from enjoying anything...you realize the internet is virtual, right? Its not like I am going over to Mikes and unplugging his darts grabbing them an running out the door.

Wait, what? Huh? I thought you were trying to pull the darTZeels physically out of Mike's barn as we type?!?!

 

[bonzo75]

Wait, what? Huh? I thought you were trying to pull the darTZeels physically out of Mike's barn as we type?!?!

Don't give him ideas

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Don't give him ideas

my guard elk are on duty outside my front gate.....and you cannot just tuck one of these 70kg darts under each arm and walk out. there are no handles.

 

[rockitman]

my guard elk are on duty outside my front gate.....and you cannot just tuck one of these 70kg darts under each arm and walk out. there are no handles.

View attachment 39063

It would make some good YouTube fodder...security video of some idiot trying to rip off a high end stereo...starting with in my case....600lbs of amps, 1-500lb Turntable, 1-250lb TT, 1300lbs of speakers...you get the idea...lol

 

[bonzo75]

my guard elk are on duty outside my front gate.....and you cannot just tuck one of these 70kg darts under each arm and walk out. there are no handles.

View attachment 39063

I think he just wants to rip them out, so that you have no choice but to play SETs. And not even the elks can stop him (save him?) from that single mindedness

 

[RogerD]

I didn't have "uber" digital at that time...but I will throw the question back to you...why would uber digital suddenly require high power?? This is simply not logical and you haven't given even a reasonable explanation as to why the two things are somehow connected.

My guess would be the lower frequency range is so clean in the digital medium that a higher powered amp can take advantage of clean explosive bass and it transfers throughout the range. Anyway that's how I perceive it and the ability of the music to soar and be thrilling with the ability to see completely through the recording,not only hear every detail but actually see and feel it..power gives you options to explore the music in many ways.

Ps RR95C is a good example very explosive...just beautiful.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It would make some good YouTube fodder...security video of some idiot trying to rip off a high end stereo...starting with in my case....600lbs of amps, 1-500lb Turntable, 1-250lb TT, 1300lbs of speakers...you get the idea...lol

hey now!!!

that's 3000 pounds of speakers, not just 1300 pounds!

 

[microstrip]

well. if you fundamentally don't view that digital can be 'uber' (reading between the lines) then not sure where this line of discussion can go. but.....here we go.....as digital gets better and better (bare with me here) it can take every advantage from higher signal path advantages. and especially large scale digital seems to benefit from the greater capacity of higher power amplification with more note expansion and soundstage expansion......something analog sort of does on it's own to a degree (whether that is an attribute, or artifact might be a question). so having lots of headroom in the amplification takes the most finely rendered large scale digital to higher heights. but more normal digital becomes a bit of 'more of the same' and not quite the same result. it does not have that analog sort of 'lift-off' in the same way.

like a door opening with higher levels of digital that with more 'normal' levels of digital you don't see that same door.

Micro and I have never discussed this before, so I don't know if this is what he was referring to, as this is just what I hear with the MSB Select II and the SGM server (Taiko Tana does not hurt either). these days I cannot listen to enough digital large scale classical music. i'm addicted to it.

and maybe i'm delusional.

Yes, I am addressing this "opening" of very top digital created by some high quality power electronics. I referred to it in WBF before - a couple of years ago when listening to to Shostakovitch symphonies with the Hercules monoblocks / Altair Constellation with the XLF's , or the fabulous Sonus Faber Fenice with the ARC REF610T - digital could get a realism that I did not believe it was possible with sound reproduction. Surely very dependent on the quality of the recording and system tuning. Besides energy a system must be able to show all the proper detail in order to show this space and scale.

 

[microstrip]

I have. These SET100 and the Koda K70 really left an indelible impression on my heart. SET100 kings of transparency and speed, K70 texture and tone colour.

Can I ask what speakers were used in these auditions?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, I am addressing this "opening" of very top digital created by some high quality power electronics. I referred to it in WBF before - a couple of years ago when listening to to Shostakovitch symphonies with the Hercules monoblocks / Altair Constellation with the XLF's , or the fabulous Sonus Faber Fenice with the ARC REF610T - digital could get a realism that I did not believe it was possible with sound reproduction. Surely very dependent on the quality of the recording and system tuning. Besides energy a system must be able to show all the proper detail in order to show this space and scale.

ok, glad we are on the same wavelength here. not surprised.

and I must mention, that analog goes even farther on this subject in this way at a warp 9 sort of presentation, the nuances decidedly more special, but the digital is certainly surprisingly remarkable. and it is child's play to select and play it so effortlessly.

 

[NorthStar]

hey now!!!

that's 3000 pounds of speakers, not just 1300 pounds!

Are you serious Mike?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Are you serious Mike?

each side has -2- 7 foot tall towers, 750 pounds each. 4 x 750 = 3000.

 

[NorthStar]

each side has -2- 7 foot tall towers, 750 pounds each. 4 x 750 = 3000.

I only asked because of the emoticon you used. I believe you.

 

[LL21]

Yes, I am addressing this "opening" of very top digital created by some high quality power electronics. I referred to it in WBF before - a couple of years ago when listening to to Shostakovitch symphonies with the Hercules monoblocks / Altair Constellation with the XLF's , or the fabulous Sonus Faber Fenice with the ARC REF610T - digital could get a realism that I did not believe it was possible with sound reproduction. Surely very dependent on the quality of the recording and system tuning. Besides energy a system must be able to show all the proper detail in order to show this space and scale.

ok, glad we are on the same wavelength here. not surprised.

and I must mention, that analog goes even farther on this subject in this way at a warp 9 sort of presentation, the nuances decidedly more special, but the digital is certainly surprisingly remarkable. and it is child's play to select and play it so effortlessly.

i have no idea if i am in your league of digital...but i can say that i spent 0 time 5 years ago listening to orchestral...that changed with the big Wilsons...but it went up and down as i continued to hone and refine the system. But now, it plays an equal part with any other kind of music without hesitation. the next challenge was organ...played nearly nil...until the last 12-18 months (in fact, just realized we played an album today of pure organ).

But it took more than the Gryphon and the CJ and the TA Opus cables, and and and...it took (as Micro has said before) a remarkable amount of time to clear out the mess, noise, distortion (and in my case) vibration (in particular the digital) to enable the system to play orchestral and organ thru without warbling, losing, fainting, buckling under the pressure. (i am all digital.)

I am not sure i get to warp 9 as described by Mike...certainly not his level of Warp 9...but our room does allow the system to breath (39' x 17' x 11') and it can be surprisingly 'relaxing' to listen at full tilt when we know the neighbors are out just to see what the system is made of. At volume, it just continues to scale and soar (where the intense sweetness of a violin or a crescendo is particularly sweet because it has a lifelike scale to it...and without tensing up which is where you immediately run to turn it down.

interestingly...i just added Ultra 6s under the Colosseum as the final piece to this latest round of vibration/isolation...and it has once again inspired me to dig back into orchestral...funny...we played organ and John Williams Lincoln Soundtrack along with several Hans Zimmer soundtracks today. perhaps there is something to what you say about good clean power and digital.

 

[microstrip]

I must mention, that analog goes even farther on this subject in this way at a warp 9 sort of presentation, the nuances decidedly more special, but the digital is certainly surprisingly remarkable.

Surely - we can not agree on everything! BTW, one of my warp 10 recordings is Shostakovitch 8th - 3rd movement (Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra, digital recording) . Unfortunately I do not have such recording on tape, and my analog is not to the level of yours!