ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[morricab]

I am amazed you call this 92 Db waveguide-tweeter-on-a-woofer a horn. In that case Audiophile Bill's focal maestro utopia at 93 Db were more sensitive horns

1) It is either 93 or 94db speaker (depending on where and when you look (I think the Mk2 might have been 1db lower but don't know for sure).
2) The tweeter horn is clearly a horn not a waveguide as it provides gain and is an exponential design...the size is perfect for the proposed cutoff (about 2Khz). It is the same horn design as used in the current Odeon Midas that is rated at 95db. This from a soft dome tweeter that is probably about 89db without loading.
3) The woofer is loaded with a back horn. This is a folded horn with a mouth that opens to the floor, which is why it doesn't immediately scream horn. The horn is probably about 2.5 meters long given the 40hz cutoff. The driver used is probably not more than 90db without horn loading, so again there is gain from the horn over a wide range. It is not vented, nor is it a transmission line, which is constructed quite differently. It is also not just a hollow box that is open at the bottom.

Why is it hard for you to accept that a horn can be made in a compact form? Because it doesn't have extremely high senstivity? Because you don't understand how it works unless there is a large bell staring you in the face? Bills maestro just uses relatively sensitive drivers...so what? The sound delivered from a horn is different regardless of the sensitivity...it has to do with the dispersion and the coupling to the room. The mouth firing down actually expands the mouth and enhances the bass power over a forward firing horn.

There are a couple of other companies who have and are using this concept, Dynamikks used to (3.x series and DB8 series), Tune audio does (Prime), Bastanis does (rothorn, wildhorn, matterhorn) and I have seen some other German horns (can't remember the name).

What you think and I think about the SQ of this kind of speaker is subjective but you talk about things you don't really understand and that is a problem...

 

[bonzo75]

Tune audio prime is not good at all and I don't consider it a horn. The Anima rocks.

The 115 Db Bastani are covered in my Einstein Berning report. Don't like them. His 84 Db audio machina were way better

 

[microstrip]

Actually, most lower power Class A amps have significantly larger power supplies for a given power output than a much higher output Class AB amp. I would argue that probably also a Krell KSA 50 has a larger, relative to the output power, power supply capacity than its bigger brothers and for sure more than something like a Bryston 4BST.

The question I was addressing was a general one - surely we can always get some exceptions to argue about.

 

[morricab]

I got a First Watt M2 (push pull class a, no feedback) which is about as simple a circuit as it gets. I got it as a backup amp rather than a main amp. The input jfet circuit is only an impedance buffer, but the rest is a single transformer doing voltage amplification into a single pair of push pull MOSFET, no feedback. I think I would rather hear the distortion of the output devices, anyway, than the distortion of either global or local feedback.

I put the M2 in my system sporadically for short periods but never at length. It did some things very well, but was a bit "wonky". I almost sold it. I finally put it in for a full audition and left it on for a week. The wonkiness disappeared, and it became quite an amazing "little" amplifier, although I personally don't find 25 watts@8ohms class A to be low powered. It has the distinction of bearing no comparison to anything but itself rather than the usual "tube vs. SS" stuff. It has an organic, interwoven wholistic presence with great 3d soundstaging and plenty of see around the corner details. On vocals, it nearly hearkens to the mighty Lamm M3, itself in the holographic thing. It has a flashbulb lighting of the instruments when there are lots of voices on stage. It also has a gloss and sheen without glare that makes massed strings sound very vivid and natural.

Nice sales pitch for SS, Mr. Pass, in the M2 First Watt model.

I am not inherently anti-transistor, just anti to the way they are normally used. For example, I like very much the sound of KR Audio products, which are actually mostly transistor (only the output is tube). The input (jfet) and driver (mosfet) are just used superbly and nearly invisibly. Their preamp (also hybrid) is also very good. Also, I had the NAT Symbiosis, which was very good rather than amazing but once fully warmed (2hours +) could be downright hallucinogenic. That one was mostly tube (input and driver) with a single very large MOSFET on the output per channel...so a SE(Transistor) hybrid...most unusual and huge (70Kg). What I found with that one though is it just missed on the flow and "inner light" quality that really good SETs (including NATs all tube SETs) have. I have yet to hear a transistor output stage that hides its character well enough. Small signal can be rather invisible (also the Lyra Conniseur preamp was awesome...apparently the Robert Koda as well) but outputs with transistors always seem to leave a trail that to me is synthetic and why they don't do what amps like Lamm ML3 and some others can do.

 

[morricab]

The question I was addressing was a general one - surely we can always get some exceptions to argue about.

your general point doesn't hold up if there are many exceptions...and there are...like nearly every Class A amp vs. a Class AB amp of double or triple the power.

 

[morricab]

Tune audio prime is not good at all and I don't consider it a horn. The Anima rocks.

The 115 Db Bastani are covered in my Einstein Berning report. Don't like them. His 84 Db audio machina were way better

You don't get it. Your preference doesn't have anything to do with it being a horn or not. Your considering something a horn or not has to be based on whether you understand what is horn loading and it seems you don't. I won't debate you on your preference...I don't really mind if you don't like back loaded horns.

The Bastanis you heard were the dipole versions with powered dipole subs and are not horns, well maybe the tweeter is. Have you heard either the Rothorn, Wildhorn or Matterhorn? Those are horns. Probably sound completely different.

I haven't heard the prime but it uses a good main driver (the Fostex sigma) and a good tweeter. As long as the crossover isn't screwed up it should be a good alternative to a compact floorstander. Srajan at 6 moons sure thought it was good...

The Dynavox 3.2 I heard a few years ago with Tenor OTL monos was AWESOME and got me interested in the whole horn thing again. That was a 96db back loaded two-way horn (a lot like my "big" Odeon La Bohemes) also but with 10 inch woofer and compression tweeter.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

as we go blasting over 700 posts in 8 days......

 

[bonzo75]

Will check out the Bastani horns.

Mike, you listen to your Lamms and darts. Your thread will be alive by the time you come back

 

[morricab]

Will check out the Bastani horns.

Mike, you listen to your Lamms and darts. Your thread will be alive by the time you come back

FWIW, I haven't heard them yet either...very curious about the Matterhorn though...

 

[morricab]

Will check out the Bastani horns.

Mike, you listen to your Lamms and darts. Your thread will be alive by the time you come back

Have you heard the Cessaro Wagner by chance? It is also a 2-way back loaded horn...but not floor firing.

 

[microstrip]

not sure who you are addressing. the big bad darts are ss minimalist champs. only 6 pieces in the signal path, and zero global feedback. and you can 'not' hear.......what you should not hear, and only what you should. no; it does not 'enhance' (add nice things) like an SET, but it's the real music other than that. and all of it. nothing stripped out and emancipated.

Mike,

As far as I know Dartzeel's are great amplifiers, but not exactly minimalist champs. I do not have the schematics of your 458, but the 108 had the three classical stages and the signal went through 12 transistors - it is a push-pull, an extra pair was used as current sources. The nice thing is that the circuit is mostly feedback free.

 

[microstrip]

your general point doesn't hold up if there are many exceptions...and there are...like nearly every Class A amp vs. a Class AB amp of double or triple the power.

In the frame of an answer to a cjfrbw specific post it holds pretty well.

 

[rockitman]

as we go blasting over 700 posts in 8 days......

amazing. Qualifies as viral !!!!

 

[morricab]

Mike,

As far as I know Dartzeel's are great amplifiers, but not exactly minimalist champs. I do not have the schematics of your 458, but the 108 had the three classical stages and the signal went through 12 transistors - it is a push-pull, an extra pair was used as current sources. The nice thing is that the circuit is mostly feedback free.

Well it uses local feedback at each stage, something Bruno Putseys has demonstrated is mathematically the same as global feedback...don't know for sure if he is right but about those kinds of things he usually is...

 

[cjfrbw]

morricab:"I am not inherently anti-transistor, just anti to the way they are normally used. For example, I like very much the sound of KR Audio products, which are actually mostly transistor (only the output is tube). The input (jfet) and driver (mosfet) are just used superbly and nearly invisibly. Their preamp (also hybrid) is also very good. Also, I had the NAT Symbiosis, which was very good rather than amazing but once fully warmed (2hours +) could be downright hallucinogenic. That one was mostly tube (input and driver) with a single very large MOSFET on the output per channel...so a SE(Transistor) hybrid...most unusual and huge (70Kg). What I found with that one though is it just missed on the flow and "inner light" quality that really good SETs (including NATs all tube SETs) have. I have yet to hear a transistor output stage that hides its character well enough. Small signal can be rather invisible (also the Lyra Conniseur preamp was awesome...apparently the Robert Koda as well) but outputs with transistors always seem to leave a trail that to me is synthetic and why they don't do what amps like Lamm ML3 and some others can do."

I forgot to qualify that I virtually always listen with a directly heated triode driver stage/preamp of some sort (26 tube/mercury vapor rectifier OR Allnic DHT preamp OR Manley Neo 300b preamp). I have listened to M2 and VFET with transistor preamp, and they sound fine that way, but the DHT definitely bumps them up a bit in my ear-stamation. Interleaving particular transistor stages with DHT stages has worked very well to give a pretty sublime hybrid.

 

[jtinn]

"Then you ARE listening very loud often it seems"

you keep saying that, but it misses the main point. and maybe you just don't understand what I'm talking about. loudness is involved, but it's more a matter of control and lack of any effort. the music is freed up to just 'go' without any limits. there is a force behind the music that is palpable. if you reach amplifier limits by definition the music is no longer effortless. a key issue for that emotional connection.....and what we refer to as 'design envelope'. the ML3's have a clearly defined one (in my system). musically, with my darts there are no limits for music. the system easily exceeds any musical need without even breathing hard.

I don't play at really high SPL's, but I do play with the room fully energized but with enormous head room. which is how real life is too.

big music, but real.

Mike, what people are really missing is the fact that you have a healthy sized room (21 x 29 x 11 if I remember correctly) which also might require more power than the ML3 have in those cases you speak of. There are many factors that people are not considering. I have been in your room countless times over the past 18 years or so and can remember maybe two times that I asked you to lower the volume. The majority of the time it is very reasonable listening levels.

 

[BruceD]

as we go blasting over 700 posts in 8 days......

Oh yes one must feel for the Mikey---

Pray for Silence of the Lamms

Sorry continue!

BruceD

 

[jtinn]

I once wanted to audition a smaller Evolution Acoustics speaker when I was making my last speaker purchase. I called the company and asked if there were any demo opportunities near Boston, or anywhere on the Eastern seaboard for that matter. Nope. So I moved on and looked at other brands.

Hi Peter, I am very surprised at your comments above as there have always been numerous places all along the eastern seaboard to hear the MicroOnes. Maybe it is specifically Boston you are talking about or maybe it was prior to the MicroOnes actually shipping.

Sorry to have lost the opportunity to have you as a member of the Evolution Acoustics family.

 

[jtinn]

I will keep quiet on the looks of other brands of speakers(I have issues), but have always liked the looks of the MM7's and like the wood color choice.

That being said, the limited finish options, would limit sales, especially if a Interior Destroyer is involved. Speakers are their number one no no. Another subject for another issue. MM7's in Piano Black, hell yes!

HFG, thanks for your kind words.

Numerous parts of all the Evolution Acoustics loudspeakers are already piano black. We could do the entire speaker in piano black and considered it, but when we modeled it, it lacked textural and shading changes. For our tastes and philosophy, it was too cold looking. The organic nature visually was lost and I think that would have been a shame. What we have done a number of times is used a black stain rather than the violin stain. The black stain allowed the end grain to still show through which was still what we were striving for. The owners were extremely satisfied. Ironically, the majority of people order our speakers in our signature violin finish.

I do not think there is any speaker on the market that "everybody" would agree has the finish or look they love. I think overall you and I are on the same page.

 

[jtinn]

It’s a little surprising to me that Mike feels that the Lamm’s run out of juice when called to reproduce very high spl’s. This was certainly not the case when I heard the amps at Steve’s place. In fact, I thought the dynamic envelope that the Wilsons elicited with the ML3’s was one of the best I had heard. The Lamm’s seemed to coast along with no sweat on his big Wilson’s. So, even though I am sure Mike’s room is a lot larger than Steve’s, I would question whether there is something else at work here, something that is holding the ML3’s back. The Wilson’s that Steve uses are a pretty benign load, I wonder if the MM7’s are actually not so benign. Perhaps there is something of an impedance mismatch or some such thing??

Nope.