With the rapid changes in DAC technology, which is most MUSICAL? New or old design?

[caesar]

I know this is very subjective, but have all the recent changes that have resulted in more resolution improved digital musicality? What DAC is most musical?

I'm not necessarily interested in the more precise, nor the more "accurate", nor the most resolving, .... but just the more musical.

 

[LL21]

Hi...for redbook, my personal favourite remains the Zanden 4-box digital...it requires a lot of tweaking in isolation, NOS tubes and good PCs...but with the Zanden, I just listen. Its detail, bass power are definitely greater than the Audio Aero La Source, Esoteric X-01SE which came for a shoot out and left. That was more than good enough for me. And on that musical level (whatever that means), I am totally done with Zanden. The shoot outs were a technical check on areas where I knew there was a question on Zanden...bass and detail. With enough tweaking, they hold their own...and in terms of effortless delivery of musical nuance, message, flow...whatever one can call it...it is by far my favorite.

Audiocrack also has a Zanden 4-box set, as did Roysen until recently.

I also have very, very good things to say about 2 other digital sources: the Metronome Kalista Ref/C2A which I nearly went for but opted against after much deliberation and the DCS Vivaldi. Excellent.

The excellent digital that I have heard but not gone for: Emm Labs CDSA, DCS Scarlatti 4box, Wadia s7i, Arc cd3,5,8, Krell 505, Stahl-Tek Vekian, Meridian 808.i2, Weiss medea

 

[BlueFox]

I seriously doubt if anyone has listened to every DAC made, nor has the same definition of 'musical', but I can say my current DAC, Auralic Vega, is more pleasing to my ear than the DAc it replaced, the Bryston BDA-2. However, until I got the Vega I was happy with the Bryston.

 

[microstrip]

IMHO you can not separate the musical performance of the DAC of the whole system - and the performance of the DAC depends strongly on power cables and digital source. I have been fortunate to use two top digital sources in my all ARC system - the ARC CD9 and the Metronome C2A. Fortunately both have exactly the same output at 0dB - 5.02V RMS, making fair comparisons quite easy. The CD9 is a tube integrated CD player and the C2A a tubed DAC. As I had two pairs of OPUS MM2 cables available the comparison were straightforward, using the CD9 as a transport and as an integrated player. The first think I noticed was that when levels are exactly matched the A/B immediate differences become harder to find. The second was that the transport had a large influence in the sound - if I used an Audiolab 8000 transport the differences were much larger than when using the digital output of the CD9. The third one was that the differences due to power cables were larger that those between the two units. I used an old Shunyata Anaconda Helix and a Nordost entry level power cable. The equipment using the Shunyata power cable always sounded more full bodied than that using the Nordost.

At another level, the C2A was always slightly more airy and had a better sensation of easiness - if you listened to it for a long time you would find something missing in the ARC. Bass delineation was also a little better in the C2A. An important point is that if I replaced one of the OPUS MM2 for any other cable in my collection, the performance of that source would degrade significantly and the one having the OPUS would be an immediate winner - something that could be expected considering all other cables in the system were from Transparent Audio.

Just to end - the more musical DAC I have ever listened to was clearly the Metronome Kalista / C2A combo. Although I was impressed with the DCS Vivaldi, the listening time was too short and the system and room too unfamiliar to allow a serious endorsement.

 

[Empirical]

In a nutshell, here are the differences in older D/A chip performance and newer D/A chip performance:

1) older NOS chips deliver a more analog sound because of the lack of digital filtering, but generally don't deliver the best detail and imaging

2) newer chips have the potential to outperform the older ladder D/A chips for detail and imaging, but ONLY if the digital filtering is done right. The key is to minimize the damage. Most digital filters don't sound natural. Apodizing filters are not all they are cracked-up to be either. The best thing is to minimize the pre and post ringing in the impulse response, not eliminate the pre-ringing at the expense of lots of post-ringing IME.

Steve N.

 

[LL21]

In a nutshell, here are the differences in older D/A chip performance and newer D/A chip performance:

1) older NOS chips deliver a more analog sound because of the lack of digital filtering, but generally don't deliver the best detail and imaging

2) newer chips have the potential to outperform the older ladder D/A chips for detail and imaging, but ONLY if the digital filtering is done right. The key is to minimize the damage. Most digital filters don't sound natural. Apodizing filters are not all they are cracked-up to be either. The best thing is to minimize the pre and post ringing in the impulse response, not eliminate the pre-ringing at the expense of lots of post-ringing IME.

Steve N.

Have always enjoyed reading your posts...thank you. I can say, as a huge Zanden-phile, I would agree with your description of NOS in my system. I compared my Zanden 4-box against the Esoteric X-01SE and Audio Aero La Source in my system just to see how much detail I could pull out of the Zanden. I feel that I have managed to pull more detail out of the Zanden...but it has taken years of experimentation on vibration, isolation, NOS tubes, tube dampers, power cables...to get every last bit out that I can.

However, in hearing the Vivaldi or Scarlatti and also the Stahl-Tek, I also began to feel that I was reaching my limits. Fortunately, I am not a detail freak. But I acknowledge the extraordinary retrieval capable in the best of the best digital these days.

And as for the other elements of music: tonal purity, flow, rhythm, understanding musical message (when pianists pause, adjust fingering, when rhythms syncopate or instruments have a contrapuntal element)...that still for me reigns strong with Zanden. And many of the comments from others who love their NOS digital seem to have similar descriptions.

 

[mep]

In a nutshell, here are the differences in older D/A chip performance and newer D/A chip performance:

1) older NOS chips deliver a more analog sound because of the lack of digital filtering, but generally don't deliver the best detail and imaging

2) newer chips have the potential to outperform the older ladder D/A chips for detail and imaging, but ONLY if the digital filtering is done right. The key is to minimize the damage. Most digital filters don't sound natural. Apodizing filters are not all they are cracked-up to be either. The best thing is to minimize the pre and post ringing in the impulse response, not eliminate the pre-ringing at the expense of lots of post-ringing IME.

Steve N.

Them thar's fightin' words for the digital lovers who refuse to see any warts on their baby.

 

[flez007]

I have just heard about a dozen DACs in my system, and always liked the NOS ones even on blind ABX conditions. But that is me....

 

[catastrofe]

I'm using an under $200 (when I purchased it 3 years ago) NOS DAC from VALABS, an e-Bay merchant out of China. While it only does redbook, it sounds fantastic. I am not missing my MSB Signature DAC at all. . .

 

[LL21]

I'm using an under $200 (when I purchased it 3 years ago) NOS DAC from VALABS, an e-Bay merchant out of China. While it only does redbook, it sounds fantastic. I am not missing my MSB Signature DAC at all. . .

That is quite a statement...congrats.

 

[Elberoth]

From all the top flight DACs I had at home during the past year - dCS Scarlatti, Metronome C-8, Audio Aero La Source, MSB Diamond Plus and the Trinity DAC - the last one is by far the most fluid, natural and musical sounding. Unfortunately, it was also the most expensive one.

 

[LL21]

From all the top flight DACs I had at home during the past year - dCS Scarlatti, Metronome C-8, Audio Aero La Source, MSB Diamond Plus and the Trinity DAC - the last one is by far the most fluid, natural and musical sounding. Unfortunately, it was also the most expensive one.

Of the Scarlatti, Metronome and Audio aero, I have had the audio aero la source in my system most recently. Are you able to make any specific comparison notes even if partly from memory?

 

[flyer]

hi elberoth,

hadn't you listened to Totaldac as well?

I have anyway and was immediately captured by it, bit didn't compare to all the other big brands (nor does it have its cost) except fthe Weiss Medea.

cheers

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I'm using an under $200 (when I purchased it 3 years ago) NOS DAC from VALABS, an e-Bay merchant out of China. While it only does redbook, it sounds fantastic. I am not missing my MSB Signature DAC at all. . .

I use their speaker cable and IC's throughout my setup. I can't speak for the DAC (waiting for my Geek Pulse), but their cables offer amazing value and I have no real desire to change them out. The problem with him is that he doesn't respond to his email inquiries as of late.

 

[microstrip]

It seem we have a new king of the DACs : the CH-precision C1 digital-to-analog controller with X1 PSU.

From the Wizard blog http://cybwiz.blogspot.pt/2011/06/ch-precision-digital-to-analog.html

 

[Priaptor]

From all the top flight DACs I had at home during the past year - dCS Scarlatti, Metronome C-8, Audio Aero La Source, MSB Diamond Plus and the Trinity DAC - the last one is by far the most fluid, natural and musical sounding. Unfortunately, it was also the most expensive one.

The Trinity may be the best DAC, I dunno, but in fairness, you never had the Galaxy Clock (at least based on your posts and signature) or the use of the PROI2S with the MSB. Correct me if I am wrong.

I think the PROI2S is a game changer with the MSB and for what its worth, one hasn't heard the MSB if you haven't heard it via their PROI2S. I chose not to spring for the UMT+ because of the lack of Gapless but there was a huge difference in using the PROI2S. I am looking to try the Blue Smoke solution for the PROI2S into my MSB to see how it compares.

 

[caesar]

It seem we have a new king of the DACs : the CH-precision C1 digital-to-analog controller with X1 PSU.

From the Wizard blog http://cybwiz.blogspot.pt/2011/06/ch-precision-digital-to-analog.html

Fascinating!!!

I wonder how much of the digital glare can be attributed to "dirty electricity"....

 

[caesar]

I also wonder that once the electricity is cleaned up, adding isolation footers (such as stillpoints, etc.), and slapping a great outboard clock on an old musical dac would make it compete with what people consider state of the art today...

 

[LL21]

I also wonder that once the electricity is cleaned up, adding isolation footers (such as stillpoints, etc.), and slapping a great outboard clock on an old musical dac would make it compete with what people consider state of the art today...

Interesting...I kinda feel like that is similar to my own thinking. My Zanden has good quality power cords into Transp Ref Conditioner, and each of the 4 boxes is in its own isolation sandwich (HRS/Artesania/Stillpoints on top...and HRS/Stillpoints underneath). And each box is connected to the Tripoint Troy as well. While I think extremely highly of the (exorbitantly expensive) Metronome Kalista Ref/C2A and the Vivaldi...no digital to date has made me consider moving.

 

[microstrip]

I also wonder that once the electricity is cleaned up, adding isolation footers (such as stillpoints, etc.), and slapping a great outboard clock on an old musical dac would make it compete with what people consider state of the art today...

Caesar,

I would not go so far, but you are correct - power cables and conditioners change dramatically (yes, I know most people think about audiophile hype as soon as they see such word , but I am assuming it ) the sound of DACs. I have recently carried a blind experience with with DACs with a few friends and we found that we were mainly listening to power cable differences. When we started using two similar power cables differences became less evident and were of a different kind.