Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[jkeny]

Except, that's not quite true - now up to 3rd Ed, 2007, with new material. That's why I queried any linkage ...

Sorry, I made a mistake - second edition was 1999 & not 1990 as I stated. I see a preface to the first & second editions (with some "new results & references") but I don't see any preface to the third edition, telling us what new material has been added - are we sure it was a revamping of the material rather than just a reprint?

 

[PeterA]

Is that two questions or one?

It is two questions, Amir, and answering them would take us back on topic and discussing the article in the OP. I've asked them of you at least twice, but for some reason you are unable or unwilling to answer them. I think I know the reason, and I understand your hesitation and need to change the subject.

When the arguments in the OP article clash with your own observations, it becomes more difficult to support your previous position. That is why I referred to your experience at AXPONA in the YG/Kronos demonstration as something of an epiphany and why I suggested that you take MikeL up on his kind offer to hear and compare some top level analog and digital reproduction.

 

[bonzo75]

It is two questions, Amir, and answering them would take us back on topic and discussing the article in the OP. I've asked them of you at least twice, but for some reason you are unable or unwilling to answer them. I think I know the reason, and I understand your hesitation and need to change the subject.

When the arguments in the OP article clash with your own observations, it becomes more difficult to support your previous position. That is why I referred to your experience at AXPONA in the YG/Kronos demonstration as something of an epiphany and why I suggested that you take MikeL up on his kind offer to hear and compare some top level analog and digital reproduction.

Before that he should go to some live classical and baroque concerts

 

[microstrip]

Those who accept that CD is not perfect are faced with a dilemma - the main cause of the imperfection comes from the encoding or from the playback of the digital data?

Can we expect that playback sound quality of redbook will still improve significantly or is the sound quality of thousands of great CD recordings intrinsically limited?

 

[YashN]

Let's go back to the article:

"During the process, he [Ludwig] especially tried to preserve as much as possible of the deep low end of the band's sound, which he believed was critical to its music.

But when he heard the final LP that was released, he was stunned. "All the low, extreme low bass that I knew was there, was chopped right off."


Please explain how this loss of low bass made the sound more like the live event.

I did get back to the article, and in fact, you conveniently left out this piece of crucial information right before:

When Clearmountain mixed vinyl albums for Columbia Records, he says the label required the test pressing of each LP to play on an old, cheap turntable without skipping, or it would have to be mixed again. Too much bass in one speaker could make the needle skip out of the groove, as would too much sibilance — a harsh "s" — in a singer's voice.

That changes everything now, doesn't it?

Now, if you're at all familiar with an analogue chain, you can envision an analogue EQ to compensate in cases where it's needed.

How is that (what the label asked for LP) different in principle (of doing bad things to the sound) from the following in CD-land:

1. Mixing and Mastering with Yamaha NS-10 Monitors to cater for the average bloke with his bad speakers and bad system. Do you actually know precisely what process mixing/mastering people do here to make it 'sound good'? Tell us.

2. Compressing the hell out of the formerly musical signal to make it as loud as possible, and louder than other people's CDs, even to the point it clips.

Now, based on your very odd way of 'investigation', explain precisely yourself how points 1. and 2. in CD-land make it a closer to the live experience.

As to how loss of low bass isn't preventing people from preferring LPs to CDs in certain cases (recording dependent, system dependent, etc..), the answer is in the question: there is more to great musical reproduction than just frequency reproduction.

Instead of trying to wage a format war, it is much better to ask people for each system what they are listening for in each, take the best of each, remove the limitations of each and then get to something even better.

Maybe you also missed this relevant part in the article:

"I think if people can't hear it, they probably didn't know what they were listening for," Anderson says. "Someone has to say to you: Listen for this, listen for this, listen for this. And when you start to home in on those details, it starts to become very clear."

Mind you, a Redbook can sound very, very good, but if you think that because you have a CD player in your system it is by default better than a vinyl in another system, there are some crucial things about both musical reproduction and the business that you are still missing.

 

[microstrip]

Before that he should go to some live classical and baroque concerts

I am sure he will find the audience too noisy ... Most times the dry coughs are much worst than ticks and pops!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Those who accept that CD is not perfect are faced with a dilemma - the main cause of the imperfection comes from the encoding or from the playback of the digital data?

Can we expect that playback sound quality of redbook will still improve significantly or is the sound quality of thousands of great CD recordings intrinsically limited?

CD recordings can be just fine......but it will likely cost you. my view is they are on par with dsd, if slightly different.

with my 4 month experience with the Trinity dac with my 7 terabytes of PCM, there were few PCM recordings that seemed to be flawed. OTOH I never collected much music which sounded like crap anyway......so not sure my experience is completely relevant in the big picture.

if I were to somehow go back to my PCM/redbook viewpoint prior to my Trinity dac experience then I would be asking the same questions.

 

[PeterA]

Those who accept that CD is not perfect are faced with a dilemma - the main cause of the imperfection comes from the encoding or from the playback of the digital data?

Can we expect that playback sound quality of redbook will still improve significantly or is the sound quality of thousands of great CD recordings intrinsically limited?

Given my experience with various DACs over the last few months, perhaps it is both: redbook will still improve significantly AND the sound quality of great CD recordings is intrinsically limited. Not unlike the conditions with vinyl: playback will continue to improve despite the inherent limitations of the medium. Some might argue, however, that, with the best turntables in particular, the standards were achieved in the 1980s.

 

[Joe Whip]

As my DACs have gotten better, the CDs I have have continued to sound better and better. There may be a limit on their ultimate sound quality, but I think we have plenty of space to go to reach that point.

 

[microstrip]

CD recordings can be just fine......but it will likely cost you. my view is they are on par with dsd, if slightly different.

with my 4 month experience with the Trinity dac with my 7 terabytes of PCM, there were few PCM recordings that seemed to be flawed. OTOH I never collected much music which sounded like crap anyway......so not sure my experience is completely relevant in the big picture.

if I were to somehow go back to my PCM/redbook viewpoint prior to my Trinity dac experience then I would be asking the same questions.

Mike,

CD being currently on par with DSD is a very good achievement - these are great words for music lovers and audiophiles.

BTW, I do not have brought the Trinity in my system for listening yet because my server is not complete. IMHO its sound quality depends very strongly on the server (as most good DACs) - I listened to it once using a typical server at a friend's system and it sounded very detailed, but not involving.

 

[amirm]

Those who accept that CD is not perfect are faced with a dilemma - the main cause of the imperfection comes from the encoding or from the playback of the digital data?

You have such a quote of imperfection in the OP article? Or some peer reviewed research that demonstrates said audibility?

Can we expect that playback sound quality of redbook will still improve significantly or is the sound quality of thousands of great CD recordings intrinsically limited?

Significantly from what vantage point? If you mean audibly, I am afraid if folks can't tell 20 generation of a piece of music through A/D and D/A, then the format is beyond perfect by those people's ears.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Some might argue, however, that, with the best turntables in particular, the standards were achieved in the 1980s.

Peter,

The EMT 927 "Large Studio turntable" was introduced in 1951!

 

[amirm]

Mind you, a Redbook can sound very, very good, but if you think that because you have a CD player in your system it is by default better than a vinyl in another system, there are some crucial things about both musical reproduction and the business that you are still missing.

Nope. I have set through countless playbacks of LP versus CD in the last three high-end shows, RMAF, CES and AXPONA. In almost all cases, everything in the OP article is audible to me from clicks and pops to lisping female vocals and everything in between. These constantly take my attention away from music and make me think of the limitation of the source. "Suspension of disbelief" is lost for me. In sharp contrast when they play CD/digital, not once do I think, "oh those bits, one of them was wrong!" The format is authoritative, solid, invariant, full bandwidth with no obvious colorations of its own. It is an absolute relief to hear it compared to LPs with obvious flaws.

These are again on the exact same systems. And LP configurations that in many cases cost more than a luxury car.

As to how loss of low bass isn't preventing people from preferring LPs to CDs in certain cases (recording dependent, system dependent, etc..), the answer is in the question: there is more to great musical reproduction than just frequency reproduction.

No it isn't in my book. If you make the bass weak and distort the highs, you have screwed up with the experience that I want to have. And the recording engineers quoted in the OP. You might be able to ignore those artifacts but I can't.

 

[amirm]

It is two questions, Amir, and answering them would take us back on topic and discussing the article in the OP. I've asked them of you at least twice, but for some reason you are unable or unwilling to answer them. I think I know the reason, and I understand your hesitation and need to change the subject.

I am neither unable, nor unwilling Peter. What I am is mindful of people making this a war of people and that is what you are doing by ignoring the OP article and putting me on the witness stand. So I am not going to jump every time you throw something at me.

Regardless, the points I make regarding what is wrong in LP to my ears are mirrored in the article and I have quoted them multiple times. I don't know how many times I have to say that ticks, pops, groove noise, lisping vocals, distorted highs, lack of solid and powerful bass, colorations of cartridge+pre-amp, etc. are audible flaws to me. Do you mistrust I and the others in the OP article hearing these obvious artifacts? Do you think they don't exist?

When the arguments in the OP article clash with your own observations, it becomes more difficult to support your previous position. That is why I referred to your experience at AXPONA in the YG/Kronos demonstration as something of an epiphany and why I suggested that you take MikeL up on his kind offer to hear and compare some top level analog and digital reproduction.

You are drawing the wrong inference from my experience with YG/Kronos. Yes that room sounded excellent on three LPs I heard. I did not re-hear the LPs that sounded poor in the other rooms in that room for you to think all must be well with the format and that the experts in the OP article are wrong.

And it is not like I could hear what went into the LP to compare what came out in YG's room. Without such a reference I can only comment on the end experience being enjoyable and it very much was.

I also gave the example of an excellent lossy compressed 256 kbps MP3 sounding great too in another room. That doesn't make 256 kbps MP3 our preferred format, does it?

I have said repeatedly that when LP sounds nice and its limitations are not glaring, then I enjoy it as much as the next guy. It just happens that to my ears and the experts who master these formats, LP compromises are significant. They clearly are not to you all and hence the reason I keep saying that the simple explanation wins: that you don't hear these artifacts as some of us do.

That, and the fact that LP's different mastering/mix may be more pleasant to someone's ears are the only simple, logical explanations for why you all have invested in the format. Looking for gremlins in digital, thinking somehow all of those flaws have positive attributes, etc. is not where it is at.

 

[microstrip]

You have such a quote of imperfection in the OP article?

No.

Or some peer reviewed research that demonstrates said audibility?

No.

Significantly from what vantage point? If you mean audibly, I am afraid if folks can't tell 20 generation of a piece of music through A/D and D/A, then the format is beyond perfect by those people's ears.

In case you have not noticed this thread is over 1000 posts, more than 95% do not quote the OP article or refer to peer reviewed research. We debate our opinions, based in our perceptions and our findings about our listening in our systems and what we read or talk. I seems most of us enjoy the music and debating in these terms. Thanks for your valuable and innovative contribution.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

CD being currently on par with DSD is a very good achievement - these are great words for music lovers and audiophiles.

BTW, I do not have brought the Trinity in my system for listening yet because my server is not complete. IMHO its sound quality depends very strongly on the server (as most good DACs) - I listened to it once using a typical server at a friend's system and it sounded very detailed, but not involving.

my perception was that the Trinity dac was very involving. it sounded alive and very musically cohesive. I would say I clearly miss it's magic with the PCM/redbook files.

OTOH it was 'very' optimized.

I was using the CAPS v4 Pipeline server with Elberoth/Lampizator mods (Windows 2012 RS Standard in core mode and Audiophile Optimizer), a Teradak LPS and Uptone LPS as well as the SAT battery power for the SAT card......the 1m Totaldac USB cable with the LPS powered Uptone Regen. it was sitting on a Herzan TS-150 active isolation shelf and I was using the Tara Labs Grandmaster w/HFX grounding XLR interconnects and it was plugged into the new dart preamp.

it was grounded to the Entreq Silver Tellus. at that time I did not yet have the Tripoint Troy. and I had not yet upgraded my outlets and PC plugs to the Furutech NCF spec.

and with the Trinity every step mattered.

 

[amirm]

Sorry, I made a mistake - second edition was 1999 & not 1990 as I stated. I see a preface to the first & second editions (with some "new results & references") but I don't see any preface to the third edition, telling us what new material has been added - are we sure it was a revamping of the material rather than just a reprint?

Here is the preface:

And I didn't say this book has everything about psychoacoustics. I said that it was a bible of information about what we know about our hearing but that there are hundreds if not thousands of other research papers out there. What is there however, should convince everyone here that we know a ton about the limitations of our hearing system which is what Lloyd asked.

 

[Steve Williams]

that you don't hear these artifacts as some of us do.

so by inference it seems to me that you are suggesting those who "prefer" vinyl lack the critical listening that you and only you seem to have and/or we have impaired hearing. I se no other way to draw inferences. Strange however as the poll as small as it is seems to be favoring vinyl. So I guess if we do, we must think that based on your arguments our hearing is flawed. Or are you saying something else that we are missing.

 

[amirm]

so by inference it seems to me that you are suggesting those who "prefer" vinyl lack the critical listening that you and only you seem to have and/or we have impaired hearing.

No, not just me but the mastering engineers in your OP article and the AES workshop on LP mastering. Here is another quote from latter:

These are not imagined problems Steve as folks try to hypothesize for digital. The facts are absolutely clear that as a format, LP significantly compromises what it it is being told to record and reproduce.

And no, it is not at all about having "impaired hearing." Almost the entire population listens to MP3 and enjoys it very much. That is not because they have impaired hearing. It is because the distortions are below the threshold that would interfere with the enjoyment of music. My threshold is lower than general public so MP3 is not for me. And by the same token, LP is not either.

I have demonstrated my ability to hear small distortions even though my ears *are* impaired far more than younger listeners. I haven't seen any of you demonstrate the same even though the tests only take 10 to 15 minutes. In that sense, bothersome or not, you may have much higher threshold for distortion than me. You won't get me to apologize for being sensitive to such distortions. Nor heaven forbid, tell me that I should not trust my ears!

 

[Rodney Gold]

One thing not discussed is the profound difference in how I choose music to listen to and what I listen to in respect of gong digital

Yeh. its great to remember going to the record shop..the booths.. buying , unwrapping and the first play with a lot of fondness..and nostalgia

Today is a different world...I have grown up and have different commitments on my time and desire to troll record shops as they are these days...is well..not a priority

With digital on my h/d and streaming. there is this huge smorgasbord of music available to me instantly and that is so enticing .. and with streaming..so cheap

It has enabled me to broaden my musical horizons like no ever time in my audio life..
I listen to more and more varied tues these days than if I was still spinning vinyl.