Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[Steve Williams]

Steve, I have never really understood the purpose of polls. Do they cause the minority to switch their opinions or the majority to say "Ah, we've been right all along!"

not at all. Just a huge thread with a lot of people talking. The poll would just tally positions. I kept the poll small for the reasons mentioned

 

[ack]

I got the first vote! Still don't see this fascination with digital, I must be deaf.

 

[Ron Resnick]

We are a very small number of voters - if polls have a large number of choices the error bars become too large and the poll is worthless.

+1

 

[Mike Lavigne]

polls have value to quantify the group in ideal situations and bring clarity. at other times a poll can result in a more murky viewpoint.

none of the choices really hit my position correctly.

I have both digital and vinyl, love them both, listen a lot to both, and think vinyl clearly superior when both are optimized. when below optimal levels many results are possible. there is no 'anti' in my position toward anything.

 

[treitz3]

My sentiments exactly Mike.

Tom

 

[TBG]

We are a very small number of voters - if polls have a large number of choices the error bars become too large and the poll is worthless.

I think you are talking about sampling error. We are basically a population. We are not a sample of anything or at least not a random sample of anything to which our views might reflect. As such, anyone who cares might confidently say the vote is a vote regardless of the number of views here. But many here have not heard the full range of digital and so those of us who have would probably dismiss them. I should say that I taught research methods and statistics for 45 years before retiring. I will concede that my satisfaction with music is only realized when I feel I am at the recording event, not whether my recorded music sounds musical. If you don't share that perspective, ignore me.

 

[PeterA]

I think you are talking about sampling error. We are basically a population. We are not a sample of anything or at least not a random sample of anything to which our views might reflect. As such, anyone who cares might confidently say the vote is a vote regardless of the number of views here. But many here have not heard the full range of digital and so those of us who have would probably dismiss them. I should say that I taught research methods and statistics for 45 years before retiring. I will concede that my satisfaction with music is only realized when I feel I am at the recording event, not whether my recorded music sounds musical. If you don't share that perspective, ignore me.

That is an interesting and ambitious approach, TBG, and I think a refreshing perspective. Are you able to realize this level of satisfaction regularly, or is it rare, and can you describe what kinds of recording events you have been able to reproduce in your listening room to the level where you feel you are transported to (at) that event?

And to what do you attribute this level of success?

 

[rbbert]

After 29 votes responses are all over the place

 

[NorthStar]

I noticed a very small spelling fault..."audioi" :b

 

[thedudeabides]

After 29 votes responses are all over the place

And 929 posts. Not sure what that means.

 

[Steve Williams]

I noticed a very small spelling fault..."audioi" :b

I saw that after I started the poll and have found it impossible to correct once the poll has started

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I've just uploaded two interesting files (link below). They are excerpts from the two recordings I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread. So on the one hand, we have a state of the art (for 1986) Telarc digital recording made by absolutely world class classical engineers using a modified PCM 1610 which was definitely only 16 bit capable and (depending on what the mods were), was probably only running at 44.1 KHz (though I would love to know - I cannot find anything about this modified device on the net anywhere). The recording was only ever issued onto LP, Cd and compact cassette when it first came out in the 80s (I had the cassette which was extremely good), but around 9 years ago it was reissued by Universal onto two 33 1/3 vinyl using the Direct Metal Mastering process. I then transcribed it using my workstation setup to 24/48 and that is one of the two excerpts.

The second excerpt is again a state of the art digital recording made in 2013 but this time on 24/192 equipment. Same deal as the one above though - issued to vinyl LP which I have transcribed on the exact same workstation setup.

I think these are interesting for several reasons. Firstly it demonstrates what is possible when a fanatical attention to detail and a dogged determination to get around pitfalls can achieve even back in the mid 80s when digital really was more often than not pretty horrible (and I think even the most staunch digital supporters will have to admit there were a often lot of problems back then both on the recording and most especially on the consumer playback side). Telarc were, however, obsessed with getting the very best out of the technology they possibly could to the point of modifying gear and even using Monster cables! I remember in the 80s I had so much trouble getting any remotely decent sound from CD that I simply gave up and bought cassettes instead.

Then with the 24/192 recording (Berlin Philharmonic under Simon Rattle playing Schumann) it shows the advantages of the technological improvements. Both recordings are in my opinion great. I think the Telarc still beats the vast majority of classical recordings out there today to be honest. Still, with the Schumann you can hear into the violins better and it conveys more the real concert hall experience. The "timing" is better and a slight veil is lifted - in my opinion these are both largely direct consequences of the higher sample rate and bit depth used in the original recording and is still evident - albeit in relative terms - despite the uploads being 24/48.

And of course because the two excerpts came from vinyl LPs that I transcribed, I think it is safe to say that vinyl sounds pretty darned good too so long as you go to the trouble of setting it up correctly, maintaining it correctly, etc (though there is some DIY stuff in my setup and it has also benefitted in the last month with an upgrade using a nameless Swedish product).

All in all, I like everything! It all can sound good. Even my own CDs sound really good, but I make them myself and it took me over a year of experimentation to get the best out of it.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/ttmblr

 

[NorthStar]

I'm listening to Van Morrison right now, live, from a CD. And it's not perfect, it's a distant recording, not closed-in like in studio.
But the bass man, that bass is present, tight and impregnating. I just don't remember bass like that on vinyl. But then I never owned an analog sota rig.
But then, the CD player I'm using right now is a $300 Sony one (MSRP)...plays SACDs too and DVDs and Blu-rays and is Wi-fi with two USB ports, and many apps.

The CD was ten bucks. Neil Young wants twice that, for his Pono recordings, and it's not even analog LPs. For that you need to invest $40, and no portable turntable, but @ home and well taken care of.
________

Oh, and his acoustic guitar sounds good on that CD, and so is the flute. ...His voice also comes clear.

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm listening to Van Morrison right now, live, from a CD. And tt's not perfect, it's a distant recording, not closed-in like in studio.
But the bass man, that bass is present, tight and impregnating. I just don't remember bass like that on vinyl. But then I never own an analog sota rig.
But then, the CD player I'm using right now is a $300 Sony one (MSRP)...plays SACDs too and DVDs and Blu-rays and is Wi-fi with two USB ports, and many apps.

The CD was ten bucks. Neil Young wants twice that, for his Pono recordings, and it's not even analog LPs. For that you need to invest $40, and no portable turntable, but @ home and well taken care of.

Certainly a fair analogy Bob but most now will say the silver disk is dead and digital files and streaming is the way

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Certainly a fair analogy Bob but most now will say the silver disk is dead and digital files and streaming is the way

Streaming could be a whole separate topic of it's own. I gave up on it despite considerable time and effort because I have never heard a good sounding USB implementation and many consumer streaming setups would typically use USB (though of course there are many setups that can avoid it altogether too). Note for dCS fans including myself: I have not heard the dCS implementation of USB - it would probably be just what I am looking for if I sold my car. I even went out last week partly in order to investigate reasonably priced mass-market USB setups (say, under $3,000 for a DAC) since I have not heard one for a couple of years, but I was still extremely disappointed - when I would plug a good quality portable player with a coax output into these very same amp combinations they sounded dramatically better. For example, I tried Oppo's top of the line DAC / headphone amp combo and through USB it really did sound terrible. But it sounded very nice through the coax input. At home here I actually get much better sound from my Rega CD player using my recorded Japanese CD-R blanks than I do any hi-res USB setup that I have heard and which I could remotely afford. So for some people such as myself, they stick with the silver disc (or in my case, blue-ish silver!) despite it's shortcomings.

 

[NorthStar]

Plus, @ almost 72 minutes running time you'd need two LPs.

Yes, digital files are the 2016 music thing...when kids can afford them. ...Us included.

I'm for discount prices for CDs on sale @ music stores, and LP hunters @ garage sales. I looked long and hard @ the prices of hi-res music downloads and new remastered LPs and it's for the higher end class who can afford it. And for us both analog and digital (LPs & CDs) have their qualitative attributes, and detriments too.
My vote happened to be in the majority so far...most likely because of my age bracket and my music evolution from analog growing up when we didn't have computers back in the 60s and that we were still far away from the zeros and ones (ladder reconstitution) as opposed to reflected music from our vinyls. ...Just like in that very first link from the very first post of this thread.

EDIT: Analog is taking the lead, a slight one. I wonder if some members are voting with their ears, or with their heart. ...Both? :b

 

[NorthStar]

By the way, that Van Morrison's CD I'm listening to right now, is from the HDMI connection, stereo, and with EQ applied to my room's acoustics (Audyssey MultEQ XT32). It retains the original 16/44 PCM...I think. I generally prefer it to straight pure direct audio mode. And I like equally the digital coaxial and stereo analog connections. * I prefer coaxial digital over optical digital; more there...in my ears.

Yes, CDs versus LPs. For music "flies" downloads and hi-res audio streaming a totally new thread would have to be resurrected, or created anew.
...Like Fiddle Faddle just referred to above.

 

[fas42]

And of course because the two excerpts came from vinyl LPs that I transcribed, I think it is safe to say that vinyl sounds pretty darned good too so long as you go to the trouble of setting it up correctly, maintaining it correctly, etc (though there is some DIY stuff in my setup and it has also benefitted in the last month with an upgrade using a nameless Swedish product). All in all, I like everything! It all can sound good.

Even my own CDs sound really good, but I make them myself and it took me over a year of experimentation to get the best out of it. https://www.sendspace.com/file/ttmblr

FF, just downloaded these and had a listen - as you say, both sound fine, considering the paths that they've gone through to get to being these sample files. Would be hard to say that one was better than the other, considering all the differences in every aspect - my only quibbles on that quick listening would be the impact of the tympani hits, and cymbal crashes - these are a bit subdued. But that could be from any part of the chain, especially my laptop setup!

 

[microstrip]

Certainly a fair analogy Bob but most now will say the silver disk is dead and digital files and streaming is the way

Steve,

The silver disk market is decreasing but it still represents more than USD 1.5 billion in the US in 2015 - it is far from being dead. In Japan, they still account for about 85 percent of sales. Recently in Germany the figure was around 70 percent and in France it was 57 percent. Sweden is a country with very high streaming penetration - more than 90% of revenues are due to this form of distribution.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

FF, just downloaded these and had a listen - as you say, both sound fine, considering the paths that they've gone through to get to being these sample files. Would be hard to say that one was better than the other, considering all the differences in every aspect - my only quibbles on that quick listening would be the impact of the tympani hits, and cymbal crashes - these are a bit subdued. But that could be from any part of the chain, especially my laptop setup!

Yes, Telarc showed just what was possible. I don't know what modifications Tony Faulkner made to the Sony PCM 1610 but I think they must have significantly improved it's performance. Other Telarc fans have commented that their SoundStream recordings were more open sounding as were the ones made when they started to use 20 bit recording (late 80s I think). It is a pity my disk from which I created the excerpt is not well centred so some wow is evident - one of the things I dislike about all analogue reproduction. Oddly enough sides 2 and 4 of the set are almost perfectly centred so wow isn't an issue, but sides 1 and 3 are not so good! (the excerpt was from side 3).