Which SS amp has the most tube-like tone and timbre?

[Bruce B]

Perhaps the Focal's were the cultprit of the Hi-Fi sound you heard ? It sure isn't the hallmark of the XA.5 series of Pass amps...that's for sure.

+1.... I have Focals and they can be a little edgy.

 

[Gregadd]

Damping should not be that crucial to Don. He has a planar speaker.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I hate the fact that the words “Hi Fi” have taken on a pejorative meaning. Those words should be a compliment because if something is truly high-fidelity, it should be accurate to the source.

This. And I'll add that I have a similar reaction to the Fremer reference above, indicating that an amp was "too thin and too speedy." Thin? OK, but "too speedy?" Not slow enough for you Mike? You like fat and sluggish?

Tim

 

[MylesBAstor]

This. And I'll add that I have a similar reaction to the Fremer reference above, indicating that an amp was "too thin and too speedy." Thin? OK, but "too speedy?" Not slow enough for you Mike? You like fat and sluggish?

Tim

Yeah things can actually be slow sounding like a Koetsu cartridge or some badly designed tube amplifier or too fast and sounding etched, hyperdetailed like MC cartridges or solid-state amplifiers of yore.

Speed is also a relative thing determined by the time between notes. If that "silence" is muddied, that affects our perception of timing. That's one of the big benefits of using the best Teflon caps in both the PS and passive and active circuit elements.

And yes, an authority no less that D'Agostino talked about how he can make superfast circuits that are unlistenable.

 

[mep]

More Ponk channeling! Just kidding Mark!

Don made an interesting comment about dropping the damping factor. I noticed that tubes have a rep for being sluggish but I have found that it is load dependent. A decently done 8 or even 3 watt tube amp into 105dB fairly flat impedance loudspeakers will disabuse any believer in this characterization of tube amps in general. Being "stressed" also affects the harmonic distortion levels as Don pointed out.

So to me, when I think of tube like timbre and tone, I am not thinking of the improperly loaded characteristics of tube amps but rather their low level resolving capabilities particularly the type of zero crossover distortion artifacts (the edginess found in less than stellar SS implementation or PP tubes for that matter). I find tubes more benign in this regard. The commonality for me then of the SS amps I tried with the tube amps I like isn't a warm and fuzzy nature. What they seem to also have in common are very fast switching transistors (look at the bandwidth figures). While these alone are no guarantee of good articulation and by that I mean articulation that sounds natural, I'm just stating an observation.

That said, yes tube amps can be PITAs and like I said, that's why I switched.

Dampening factors of tube amps are very low no matter the make, model, or series due to the nature of the beast. Divide the load impedance by the amp output impedance and you have your dampening factor. Tube amps all have high output impedances compared to SS and thus very low dampening factors. The dampening factor of my ARC VS115 is rated by ARC at "approximately" 8. Since the output impedance of the VS115 is 1.25 ohm, measured into an 8 ohm load, the dampening factor is 6.4.

 

[whose]

Peavey IPR-1600

You can spend a lot more money, but for around $300 I like this:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers/1650#post_18534472

 

[MylesBAstor]

You can spend a lot more money, but for around $300 I like this:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers/1650#post_18534472

In what way do you think this amplifier sounds like tubes?

 

[DonH50]

Damping should not be that crucial to Don. He has a planar speaker.

Ah, but not always! I had Infinity IRS II's for a while and a whole bunch of conventional speakers rotated through. Some I have owned (including the IRS that was replaced by my Maggies) whilst others were just visitors (like the B&W 801's, DQ-10's, various 'stats, and numerous dynamic speakers).

Also FWIWFM, the panels do appreciate high damping at the low end because the panels themselves develop modes just like conventional speakers, only bigger. Quad spent a lot of time and effort working out ways to deal with them.

While I am unlikely to go back to tubes, some of the most magical sound (though not the cleanest by a long shot) was when I had my Maggies bi-amped (actively, don't trust the passive kind that's such a rage now) with an ARC D79 on top and Counterpoint SA-220 on the bottom. I passed over much better SS amps (ML, Krell, for example) to get a seamless blend from high to low. All driven by my modded ARC SP3a1. My present system is cheaper and cleaner but not as magical. Does have tighter bass...

 

[whose]

I grew up on Dynaco amps, and intially did not like the sound of SS

No measurement. And probably there are other SS amps. I grew up on Dynaco amps, and intially did not like the sound of SS. I enventually move on to Hafler (MOSFET) SS. I compared the sound of my Hafler and my IPR and prefer the IPR. Call it a personal thing: "it sounds warmer to my ears".

 

[whose]

In what way do you think this amplifier sounds like tubes?

No measurement. And probably there are other SS amps. I grew up on Dynaco amps, and intially did not like the sound of SS. I enventually move on to Hafler (MOSFET) SS. I compared the sound of my Hafler and my IPR and prefer the IPR. Call it a personal thing: "it sounds warmer to my ears".

 

[barrows]

HMM. Lots of interesting replies on this thread. First, we cannot forget that system context cannot be ignored: hence the "non-like" of the Pass XA series with Esoteric/Focal (no wonder!). In my experience that system would be dominated by the forward sound of both the source and speakers. For tube "tone" (and is one looking for old school tube tone, or contemporary tube tone like ARC?), I think one cannot do better better than Pass XA series, in an appropriately matched system.
If one is looking for the lit up midrange and dynamic liveliness of tubes, the Ayre Reference series amps should be auditioned for sure (MX-R monos, and VX-R stereo), and with the right speakers/source/cabling these amps are no slouches when it comes to tone. Other outstanding amps are the Class A models from Vitus, if one is looking in that price category, the Vitus are a must audition, and for less $, Vitus now has a class A/B option which is still very, very good.
In any case, how the amp interacts with your own speakers/cables is going to have a lot to do with how its perfromance is perceived, so one must audition with ones' own speakers.

 

[caesar]

HMM. Lots of interesting replies on this thread. First, we cannot forget that system context cannot be ignored...
In any case, how the amp interacts with your own speakers/cables is going to have a lot to do with how its perfromance is perceived, so one must audition with ones' own speakers.

Barrows, excellent points. However, amps are heavy and time is limited...

 

[barrows]

Barrows, excellent points. However, amps are heavy and time is limited...

Hahahaha, no doubt! For me it takes a long time to really get to know what a given component sounds like, this aspect makes it even harder. Right now I am listening to some nCores... not sure they are going to live up to the hype. I am on the cost effective side of audio compared to most here (my amp is a Pass X 150.5, and sometimes, a rebuilt, modded PS Audio Classic 250), but I have had good opportunities to listen closely, in familiar systems, to amps I mentioned in my post.

 

[Gregadd]

Ah, but not always! I had Infinity IRS II's for a while and a whole bunch of conventional speakers rotated through. Some I have owned (including the IRS that was replaced by my Maggies) whilst others were just visitors (like the B&W 801's, DQ-10's, various 'stats, and numerous dynamic speakers).

Also FWIWFM, the panels do appreciate high damping at the low end because the panels themselves develop modes just like conventional speakers, only bigger. Quad spent a lot of time and effort working out ways to deal with them.

While I am unlikely to go back to tubes, some of the most magical sound (though not the cleanest by a long shot) was when I had my Maggies bi-amped (actively, don't trust the passive kind that's such a rage now) with an ARC D79 on top and Counterpoint SA-220 on the bottom. I passed over much better SS amps (ML, Krell, for example) to get a seamless blend from high to low. All driven by my modded ARC SP3a1. My present system is cheaper and cleaner but not as magical. Does have tighter bass...

I suspect there are other factors that make ss give better bass to planars, e.g. FR and power. Not that I dsagree with you.The Magnepans are a near ideal amp load.

 

[DonH50]

Agreed. Not so much FR, except maybe the old Tymp's or newer 20.x, but power yes because they are pretty inefficient (as are most panels). And yup, they are nearly purely resistive with a little bump around the bass/mid crossover, another at the tweeter, then of course the impedance drops a bit (though stays mostly resistive) at the very high end. One of the best matches for a tube amp, unlike most dynamics or 'stats. One of the reasons ARC used them in the test and show room for so many years (and may still, I don't know).

 

[barrows]

Maggies thrive on power (current actually). They really "need" it. They also seem to like damping factor. I used to have quite few customers who really loved their 3.6s with high power class D amps...

 

[DonH50]

"Power" is enough; people say "current" but mainly because they are a 4-ohm nominal load and a lot of amps, especially in AVRs, do not handle 4 ohms well. Or they just don't know the definition of power.

My first exposure to Class D was the infamous Infinity amp. A less than stellar product IMO. To stay within the context of this thread, it was very un-tubelike. My current Pioneer's Ice amps are nice; chances are I would not have the amps if I'd had the Pio instead of the Sony when I set up my Maggies again after years of storage. The Sony AVR was a wuss...

Since I introduced AVRs, Yamaha gets my vote for most-tubelike, at least the older ones (have not heard the newest models), and in the mass-market arena.

 

[Gregadd]

Class D Amps-I have not had the pleasure.

I recall driving my MG I with a H/K 35 watt receiver. It ate fuses like Tic-Tacs.

 

[treitz3]

Gee, I wonder why?

 

[barrows]

I wonder what one of those Rogue tube/class D hybrid amps might do with a Maggie 3.7... that is a combo I woudl love to hear sometime.