What's best for a $2500 pre/pro?

[andy_c]

So, with this Audyssey Pro thingie, it's been mentioned that one can specify a target curve. Can one specify, say, "do not equalize" for frequencies above some chosen frequency (which would be an approximation to the Schroeder frequency)?

If not, what is the nature of the DSP at frequencies above Schroeder? Does it attempt to flatten the response including all reflections, or does it use windowing and then flatten the quasi-anechoic response? I'm very suspicious of any DSP that tries to EQ high frequencies without windowing.

How much does Audyssey Pro (say, for the 80.2) cost?

 

[amirm]

So, with this Audyssey Pro thingie, it's been mentioned that one can specify a target curve. Can one specify, say, "do not equalize" for frequencies above some chosen frequency (which would be an approximation to the Schroeder frequency)?

You can't specify the correction but rather the curve itself. So you are really setting overall tone of the system.

If not, what is the nature of the DSP at frequencies above Schroeder? Does it attempt to flatten the response including all reflections, or does it use windowing and then flatten the quasi-anechoic response? I'm very suspicious of any DSP that tries to EQ high frequencies without windowing.

It attempts to flatten the curve within +-3db. Alas, I find that it creates various problems of its own. While the overall curve might be flat, you get humps in mid-range which to me are objectionable. In Harman studies, they found this a major problem with expert listeners giving it poor scores. We currently have our Audyssey Pro disabled in our Wisdom system, getting ready to use JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500 with it which current works superbly well against its own brand of speakers.

How much does Audyssey Pro (say, for the 80.2) cost?

It costs a few thousand dollars. But I really cannot recommend it. I spent a month trying to tune it but it just doesn't perform. The best I can get it to do is with measuring one location. Multiple locations just creates a mess in my opinion. With single position, it improves bass performance some but degrades mid-range. Vocals just sound strange to me.

The problems I hear are also the same problems I heard when I tried to use the normal Audyssey on my Onkyo. There, I made one measurement and the results were complete degradation. I did another measurement in the same location and this time it provided an improvement.

Right now, the only system I can recommend is the above mentioned JBL SDEC-4500. I plan to write a tutorial on it soon. For now, the combination of that hardware and Harman Sound Field Management is to beat: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/ProductDetails.aspx?prdid=29

You can see them above the bank of amplification in our rack, correcting 20 channels of audio:

 

[amirm]

And close up of the DSP system:

 

[andy_c]

Right now, the only system I can recommend is the above mentioned JBL SDEC-4500. I plan to write a tutorial on it soon. For now, the combination of that hardware and Harman Sound Field Management is to beat: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/ProductDetails.aspx?prdid=29

You can see them above the bank of amplification in our rack, correcting 20 channels of audio:

(picture snipped)

Wow, that looks fancy! It appears to be specific to the JBL synthesis system though. I have JBL LSR6332 speakers, which I'm rather partial to. They need subs, but I currently live in an apartment and can't do that. But I'm anticipating moving into a house near the end of this year, and then it will be sub time . I'd probably use the Onkyo 5508 pre/pro (virtually the same as the Integra 80.2), but I've been waffling between using the Geddes multi-sub technique with Behringer DCX2496 or the JBL BassQ, which is now going for $795 through Amazon (lots better than the $1200 original list price).

Any experience with the BassQ?

 

[amirm]

The SDEC hardware is stand-alone. It takes analog in, and outputs analog. And if you used the system "naked" where you do the eq, then it will work with anything.

The Harman room EQ though is currently designed to only work with JBL speakers. We are working with them to develop a profile for Wisdom speakers. And the whole setup requires a special dealer kit which includes 8 mics, dedicated laptop, etc. to use. So it is not an end-user solution.

We have the JBL BassQ in our showroom but I am ashamed to say I have not yet tried it . I did ask my guys about it and they said it works well. It does the clever equalization of all subs relative to the listening position. You can read about it in the Harman Patent here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=172199&d=1270527844

Seeing similar software in JBL SDEC with bass that is incredibly well balanced.

If you are not in a hurry, I will take the time to play with it and report back.

 

[andy_c]

We have the JBL BassQ in our showroom but I am ashamed to say I have not yet tried it . I did ask my guys about it and they said it works well. It does the clever equalization of all subs relative to the listening position. You can read about it in the Harman Patent here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=172199&d=1270527844

It is far more of the turnkey solution than Geddes. Seeing similar software in JBL SDEC with bass that is incredibly well balanced.

If you are not in a hurry, I will take the time to play with it and report back.

That would be cool - thanks! I'm in no hurry at all. Over at another forum, Roger Dressler found that there was apparently some high-pass filtering in the BassQ unit at around 20 Hz. That's a bit of a disappointment. He did some customization to splice in a "super sub" to cover below that, with some manual measurements and adjustments to integrate it. I do DIY, so I could handle that. Or maybe the Behringer unit could be used for that function.

 

[amirm]

Its been a while since I read that thread. I thought at the time that it was the box not attempting to correct the slope down in the sub as opposed to on-purpose filtering. Pushing the lower end of the sub response may cause a lot of distortion.

But again, this is from memory.

 

[Ron Party]

Amir, does that JBL SSP work only with Synthesis speakers or any JBLs?

 

[amirm]

As I mentioned earlier, the hardware is universal. The software that runs on it is customized however. I am fairly certain the 4500 unit we use is hardwired to the Synthesis speakers as it assumes independent drive for each driver. The 3000 may be more flexible. I will find out.

For now, the system can be unlocked for arbitrary speaker systems if you know what you are doing and more importantly, Harmon believes you know what you are doing to give you that version . This is what we are embarking on as we attempt to use the SDEC with Wisdom speakers I mentioned before. Hopefully we will have hardware next week and I can report soon after that how it goes.

 

[amirm]

OK, I was mistaken. Full suite of Harman speakers are supported from Revel to standard JBL speakers.

 

[audioguy]

So, with this Audyssey Pro thingie, it's been mentioned that one can specify a target curve. Can one specify, say, "do not equalize" for frequencies above some chosen frequency (which would be an approximation to the Schroeder frequency)?

If not, what is the nature of the DSP at frequencies above Schroeder? Does it attempt to flatten the response including all reflections, or does it use windowing and then flatten the quasi-anechoic response? I'm very suspicious of any DSP that tries to EQ high frequencies without windowing.

How much does Audyssey Pro (say, for the 80.2) cost?

Audyssey is very tight lipped on how they do what they do so I'm not sure you will be able to find answers to that part of your questions. But you can post it on the Audyssey web site and they may answer you.

Audyssey Pro costs about $600 or $700 PLUS another $150 for your specific device.

And my view differs a bit from that of Amirm. While I would certainly not say it is the best pre-pro on the market, I have had much much better success than apparently he has on an Integra 80.2 that utilizes double the filter granularity of the previous Audyssey products . If you follow the recommendations on the Audyssey web site on microphone placement and add a few more additional measurements at the MLP, you can get VERY satisfactory results. Being careful and judicious and using a regular mic stand will provide more than satisfactory results. Some fine tuning of the target curve may be necessary (more than just adjusting the slope) as you can add a small dip and/or small rise at specific frequencies. And while I have only compared it to two other room correction technologies, it was the clear winner in reducing mid and upper bass ringing in a very well treated room.

Just one man's opinion. YMMV.

As I said, I am not claiming it is the best pre-pro on the market but it certainly may be in the sub $2500 price point.

 

[amirm]

Doubling the resolution should help with some of the problems I am seeing where due to lack of that, as it tries to adjust the response, it also tilts up the adjacent areas.

 

[NorthStar]

Is that JBL Synthesis system less than $2,500?

 

[andy_c]

If you follow the recommendations on the Audyssey web site on microphone placement and add a few more additional measurements at the MLP, you can get VERY satisfactory results. Being careful and judicious and using a regular mic stand will provide more than satisfactory results. Some fine tuning of the target curve may be necessary (more than just adjusting the slope) as you can add a small dip and/or small rise at specific frequencies. And while I have only compared it to two other room correction technologies, it was the clear winner in reducing mid and upper bass ringing in a very well treated room.

Just one man's opinion. YMMV.

As I said, I am not claiming it is the best pre-pro on the market but it certainly may be in the sub $2500 price point.

The pre-pro looks very good to me too, though I'd probably get the Onkyo 5508 (basically the same unit but can be found for slightly less money). Lots of features! I'm just rather suspicious of EQ at frequencies above Schroeder, unless it's an EQ of the quasi-anechoic response in that frequency range. So I might not use Audyssey at all.

The BassQ unit looks like it will be cheaper than going with Audyssey Pro, but it only does EQ of the subs. There's that "no man's land" between 80 Hz and the Schroeder frequency for which it would be nice to have EQ, using the mains.

Has anyone used the DLNA support of this unit? I currently have an HTPC with which I use Foobar2000 to play music, but if the UI of the Integra/Onkyo were good enough, it would be nice to be able to get rid of the HTPC. My actual music files are on a separate computer in another room.

 

[amirm]

Is that JBL Synthesis system less than $2,500?

The box it is based on is actually in that area. Harman bout BSS a few years ago and the JBL hardware I mentioned is actually theirs: http://www.bss.co.uk/

They provide pretty neat piece of software called London Architect to program the DSP. Alas, if you get this version, you can't use the Harman Room EQ software. You are on your own with London Architect. We use BSS boxes a lot to tame speaker and room distortion. For example when we install ceiling or in-wall speakers (for multi-room audio) we use BSS boxes to get them to sound good.

But I hear you about the general theme here being for a couple of notches lower in cost .

 

[NorthStar]

So Amir, this system works great for in-wall and in-ceiling speakers? ...Because Audyssey doesn't!

 

[amirm]

Of course and superbly well. Here is the picture of our front theater wall with in-wall JBL Synthesis speakers that are corrected by this system:

The Wisdom in-walls are the ones we are going to go after next, after not doing too well with Audyssey.

 

[NorthStar]

Impressive!

* Yeah, a friend of mine has good quality Speakercraft in-wall and in-ceiling speakers, and his Denon AVR-5803CI receiver set all their crossovers from 200 to 250 Hz!
And Chris from Audyssey said it's because their sound travels along the walls and ceilings!
He CANNOT lower them as he will lose resolution between the new figures and the ones from his Denon.
It is very sad indeed. And he simply cannot have free standing loudspeakers (wife's order)!

We tried everything to fix his issue, but helas Audyssey is not up to it! Not in that particular case anyway!

He's going to do a firmware upgrade (software and hardware) and get Audyssey MultEQ XT32 in his 5308, but I already told him that I really doubt that it would help him out!
And I don't think he's ready to invest a serious sum of money now to get JBL Synthesis; unless there was an inexpensive version.
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P.S. Amir, I noticed the off-center front center speaker's array; is that for better sound integration at the main center listening position with less peaks and nulls!
Because that would make sense to me.