What Really Matters?

[Argonaut]

Pleased to hear from a fellow ML CLX proponent Kostas, however I rather suspect that your post, and comments therin, regarding your personal experience of CLX's may draw fire from a rather opinionated direction, once the gushing over some "Colored" old tin horn speakers at Munich is done

 

[FrantzM]

Very good theme for a thread ...

I would put it as, "The sound that leaves the surface of the speaker drivers". Why frame it in this fashion? Because, it takes the listening environment out of the equation, what happens once the acoustic waves are generated from some sort of moving surface, everything afterwards, is ignored. So, why do I not worry about what happens in the room? Because, IME the sound generated by the speakers is the only thing that really counts, is that which guarantees success or failure in conjuring up a convincing illusion, at all times. And it means that the whole system, right up to the mechanism that excites the air molecules play their part in making it happen, or not.

As a specific method for assessing whether this factor is sufficiently good enough, I go up those speaker driver surfaces and listen to them, literally with my ear inches away, at full normal volume of playback ... do I want to deafen myself? No, I'm doing no more than the equivalent to going right next to a violinist, standing only a foot away from a trumpeter, leaning over the soundboard of a piano in full cry - do these things sound hideous if I do that? No, but it's incredibly intense, the sound completely fills my perceptual universe when I do that ... and an audio system should do exactly the same thing if it's working correctly!

Frank
Seriously? SERIOUSLY??
as usual a unique and fas42-exclusive approach. One of those that won't work for anybody else ... At times I wonder at the purpose of such posts. Do you stand back and wait once someone engages to go further pulling their legs?

 

[fas42]

Frank Seriously? SERIOUSLY?? as usual a unique and fas42-exclusive approach. One of those that won't work for anybody else ... At times I wonder at the purpose of such posts. Do you stand back and wait once someone engages to go further pulling their legs?

Frantz, if you were to read some other's comments more closely it would be very apparent that this is not exclusive to me, not by a long shot. They may choose to frame it in a different light, ascribe the behaviour to other causes - or just move on; for me, this is fascinating stuff, that I've have spent a great deal of time investigating, and getting a handle on in various ways. The reason that very few people play with it is because firstly they are unaware, and secondly, it requires major effort and focus, at the moment, to make happen - and I'm sure many still wouldn't bother even if it was more common, for the simple reason that they wouldn't find it interesting.

For those who may be curious about what audio replay is capable of achieving, if certain approaches are used, then what I talk about may be of value ...

 

[KostasP.]

Greetings Harlequin,
Fire, like stones, is a natural element; it is the prerogative of those firing or stoning. Just remember though, that only fruit-bearing trees are stoned. I am not a fledgeling in this hobby and I can defend my convictions without being arrogant and dismissive of the other person's opinions. Quintessential knowledge should be shared! Cheers, Kostas.

 

[Argonaut]

Pleased to make your acquaintance Kostas, and to hear that you are "In rude health" were your online constitution is concerned.
I would be most interested in reading more about your CLX based system and your experience of same, either via a thread perhaps in the ML sub forum, or PM should you prefer.

 

[FrantzM]

Greetings Harlequin,
Fire, like stones, is a natural element; it is the prerogative of those firing or stoning. Just remember though, that only fruit-bearing trees are stoned. I am not a fledgeling in this hobby and I can defend my convictions without being arrogant and dismissive of the other person's opinions. Quintessential knowledge should be shared! Cheers, Kostas.

Ilike your approach. Welcome again !

 

[Steve Williams]

First time it happened for me it was completely unexpected, and I spent quite some time trying to comprehend what had occurred. The behaviour switched off after a short time, and I was again scratching my head, wondering what the hell was going on now! However, by dint of continually fiddling with the setup, trying to get that characteristic to repeat,

Frank, a post such as this that leaves me scratching my head. What is it that you do or what do you attribute this wonderful effect turning itself on only to turn itself off. I would have to think that anyone who fiddles with a system and makes a change it becomes permanent until or unless that change is removed.

I have not read once Frank just what it is that you do to make the sound so perfect in your system. Please explain to me once that perfect sound is achieved why is it that the change dissipates. Could this be a manifestation of the type of power where you live and perhaps a simple power conditioner or adequate grounding etc might be preferred. I am miffed about your listening technique with each er on the driver. What do you do when you listen to correct the situation and make it better. I don't believe that you have once told us what you do to improve the system

 

[Whatmore]

Kostas, greetings from a fellow Melburnian

 

[FrantzM]

Frank, a post such as this that leaves me scratching my head. What is it that you do or what do you attribute this wonderful effect turning itself on only to turn itself off. I would have to think that anyone who fiddles with a system and makes a change it becomes permanent until or unless that change is removed.

I have not read once Frank just what it is that you do to make the sound so perfect in your system. Please explain to me once that perfect sound is achieved why is it that the change dissipates. Could this be a manifestation of the type of power where you live and perhaps a simple power conditioner or adequate grounding etc might be preferred. I am miffed about your listening technique with each er on the driver. What do you do when you listen to correct the situation and make it better. I don't believe that you have once told us what you do to improve the system

Sorry to be mean

Most mind altering substances effects seem to wear off after a given amount of time ..

 

[still-one]

Kostas
I think you are trying to make this much more complex than necessary. Of course everything in the recording and playback chain will impact what reaches our ears but in the end why would anyone listen to a result that does not please them. Some of us tweak our rooms and components until the music we enjoy sounds best to us not worrying how close to the mic feed it might be.

In addition your point that you "wish that every passionate audiophile was also a recordist and, if possible, a player of a musical instrument in any level of competence." is somewhat insulting. I don't need to be a chef to know what good meals taste like, I don't need to design automobiles to know which models I prefer, and I don't need to be a painter to know which works of art I linger before while in a museum.

I believe you are not alone but are in the minority when you state a good system can be more real than the "real".

 

[Rodney Gold]

Welcome Kostas .. I live in SA and visit melb often, I have a sister there. Even once owned a set of Osborn epitome speakers in bubinga ex Aussie..regret I ever sold them.
Give us a little intro to you and your system. It all sounds interesting...

 

[Folsom]

The original question, I'm not sure how to answers nonsense. What's the difference? The signal that reaches the speakers is always what you hear, interpreted by the speaker. I want to try and be nice about this - I don't dislike anyone commenting - but it's like asking if a car works better if it smells more like chicken, or turkey.

If we rephrase what you probably want to mean it's broken down to something very simple; does distortion matter? But you can't separate the speakers from that. The question to bring it into perspective would be, does what you hear matter more than distortion figures? And that's a very old topic with some clear answers.

But if I had to take a guess to the spawn of this topic I'd say it's related to; Does it matter if I'm listening to strange equipment not endorsed by typical engineers, that probably don't do what they say or even cause "problems", but I ultimately prefer the sound?

 

[still-one]

The original question, I'm not sure how to answers nonsense. What's the difference? The signal that reaches the speakers is always what you hear, interpreted by the speaker. I want to try and be nice about this - I don't dislike anyone commenting - but it's like asking if a car works better if it smells more like chicken, or turkey.

If we rephrase what you probably want to mean it's broken down to something very simple; does distortion matter? But you can't separate the speakers from that. The question to bring it into perspective would be, does what you hear matter more than distortion figures? And that's a very old topic with some clear answers.

But if I had to take a guess to the spawn of this topic I'd say it's related to; Does it matter if I'm listening to strange equipment not endorsed by typical engineers, that probably don't do what they say or even cause "problems", but I ultimately prefer the sound?

I think you should re-read the OP's last paragraph. He seems to be asking do we want to hear the recording as pure as possible or do we care/ want the gear and cables in the audio chain to make it sound how we want.

 

[Folsom]

I think that's your interpretation of how you want that Paragraph to read, Jim. Define "pure" please.

I can't believe I got involved in this nonsense. You haven't stated anything different than I mentioned Jim. This topic is going to be a blackhole.

 

[still-one]

I think that's your interpretation of how you want that Paragraph to read, Jim. Define "pure" please.

I can't believe I got involved in this nonsense. You haven't stated anything different than I mentioned Jim. This topic is going to be a blackhole.

That's twice you called this thread nonsense. Why are you even posting?

 

[Folsom]

I'd like to see it conform to reality so that we can have productive conversations. I'm afraid otherwise it might spill over into everything else.

 

[fas42]

Frank, a post such as this that leaves me scratching my head. What is it that you do or what do you attribute this wonderful effect turning itself on only to turn itself off. I would have to think that anyone who fiddles with a system and makes a change it becomes permanent until or unless that change is removed.

I have not read once Frank just what it is that you do to make the sound so perfect in your system. Please explain to me once that perfect sound is achieved why is it that the change dissipates. Could this be a manifestation of the type of power where you live and perhaps a simple power conditioner or adequate grounding etc might be preferred. I am miffed about your listening technique with each er on the driver. What do you do when you listen to correct the situation and make it better. I don't believe that you have once told us what you do to improve the system

Steve, what it's about is removing audibly important imperfections - they're not the usual things that people concern themselves with, hence why most don't come across this behaviour. The turning off aspect occurred most dramatically in my first system, 30 years ago, because I didn't have much understanding of possible causes, I lacked the knowledge I have today.

In that first, epiphany system it was most likely static that was my biggest problem - I had the speaker cables simply laying on the nylon carpet, and as the system operated the SQ steadily degraded; I had to switch everything off, and then back on again to restore the quality. These days of course I would use cable lifters, or equivalent - the point being that one needs to understand where the problem lies, and then do something appropriate.

Regarding listening to the driver, it's simply equivalent to the measurement crowd getting a reading of 0.0001% distortion on their AP box - I'm closely monitoring how much audible distortion the system is producing; taking a reading, subjectively.

Over the years, for each system, it's been different issues - there is no one correct answer. In my early Perreaux based setup, the big one was that amplifier's power supplies - I had to remove the main capacitors in the end, and add multiple small, higher quality caps. Yes, power supplies, and conditioning the mains power is usually a key requirement, and I have experimented with different techniques over the years - I read about an idea, and then try it, to see if it's effective.

Currently, in the NAD based system, the inherent power supplies seem quite adequate, at this point in the tweaking cycle. The major flaws came from the complexity of the amplifier, with far too many, poor quality switches in the pathway of the signal - now largely sorted.

Using that listening test, the system at the moment is in a just reasonable shape: it doesn't pass muster, I can still hear distortion coming through from the system not sufficiently warmed up on any particular day, and interference from the mains and other electrical activity. This I can "solve" by thoroughly conditioning for a number of hours, and then switching off everything in the house that causes audible artifacts - the 'proper' solutions just for those issues would be to replace various parts, like the speaker drivers, with better quality units; run the electronics 24/7, and markedly improve the isolation of the electronics from interference.

People who have intrinsically high quality gear, but don't achieve the best sound, would have other issues - ground loops picking up interference, a few poor quality connections in key areas, static buildup from some cause, insufficient isolation from poor mains, vibration causing audible issues, are just some of the things to look at - the approach is to determine what is undermining the potential of the particular system, and then fix it; every rig will have its own story of why it doesn't sound as good as it could, it's a "fault-finding" process to sort these things out.

 

[Fidach Lad]

The brain isn't a static organ; our preferences for the sound we like can change with experience and often it's not by our design, but random. I'm sure a lot of people on this board have had random epiphanies at shows, at club meetings, at friend's houses, that led to a radical change in their sonic preferences and the hunt for the equipment that could produce that sound. This may even happen with equipment designers. Remember the revival of SET in the US in the early '90s and the more recent revolution in SS output stages?

 

[fas42]

What people may like many times is different from what's on the recording - and my preference is for the latter. I'm reminded of my experience nearly 30 years of hearing probably the best vinyl system in Sydney at the time - talking here about Goldmund Reference TT, heavily tweaked!! - very impressive playback of LPs. Of course, CDs were extremely low in the food chain there, but he had the classic CAL valve unit to use; very smooth, benign sound - big problem was, half of the musical message went missing!

Such is not a solution - all that's on the recording has to be audible, but nothing should be adversely emphasised; many ambitious systems trip over themselves in this regard.

 

[witchdoctor]

What do others think? Do Eichenbaum's questions get to the essence of this hobby?[/QUOTE]

The answer is as personal as your favorite food. What matters to you may not matter in the least to me. To me I just want it to sound as close to live music as possible and could care less what contraption conveys that experience.