What makes sense??

[DaveyF]

I see that there are several very good threads on this forum and others regarding questions of either a) component upgrades b) room upgrades or c) software upgrades ( PCM to DSD, vinyl to tape etc).
All of the questions tend to have numerous answers, and depending on the poster, different perspectives. What is interesting is that 'budget' is not always a factor, although this seems to be important for a few people. I believe that it would be prudent for all to remember that the cost of a lot of the gear in discussion is really only 'pocket change' for many on this forum, and yet the same gear is also going to be a years income for others!
Is the poster who asks questions about a $50K DAC ( and owns same) really asking about the cost of that DAC, or more likely wanting confirmation of their decision to purchase said DAC in the first place.
Perhaps, that same poster may has numerous other DAC"s that are even more costly and simply wants to "explain" that fact. In my area, we have several a'philes who have varying budgets for gear....one gent who has already spend well over $1.5M on gear and has, for example, his Wilson Alex 2's sitting in a corner collecting dust ( since I believe he no longer favors them) to others who are saving up for their first Rega table.
This brings up my main point of this thread: what are the prerogatives of your being an a'phile. What makes sense to you, for instance...does it make sense to you to buy the $50K speaker before you have a great room to put it in, does it make sense to buy the $25K tape machine before you have great speakers or the room to put in? Does it make sense to spend $100 on an LP, when the same money will buy you ten(10) CD's. And so on.

BTW, I'm NOT posting this thread to try and have anyone state either how well off they are or how poor, simply to get an idea as to our priorities in gear and sound reproduction only. Another question, would the gear that is being lauded at Andre Marc's miser forum ever have any interest to you at its low price....even if it performs way above its pay grade, or is it simply not a consideration due to its perceived lack of prestige and probable inability to compete with the very best?

Lots of ??'s here...your thoughts.

 

[NorthStar]

That is a very complex question Davey...but I like it. :b

For me, what makes the most sense, is probably different as there are people on our planet...7.3 billion. :b
And I don't play with the small stuff...things that cost way over my head...I remain calm and play only with stuff that is directly related to my passion and joy in life...the canvas of the music itself.
No new speakers, no new turntables, no new cartridges, no new cables, ...just new music that touch my soul in the deepest crevasses.
The road to fulfill one's soul with harmony is my new constant horizon in life...that's the first thing that I try to upgrade.

Here you have it now...next. :b

? The music recordings...the artists...their mastering of their craft...their playing...and singing...like a grandiose opera in all its splendor.
The rest is all superficial, secondary, a tool, a provider, a reproductive transport. The essence is the transportation itself...into an inner trance.

 

[DaveyF]

Thanks, Bob. I thought you might like this thread...

 

[amirm]

I wrote three answers and deleted them all . Reason being that I don't have a rationale that explains what I own. I simultaneously own extravagant equipment and those based on frugality.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Great thread Davey, I'm sure your recent contributions to my "reticence re R2R" thread was in your mind and yr PMs to me when starting this.
I've always tried to upgrade within financial limits (never taking out loans) and only if I get a significant upstick. I have made a couple of bad choices - my first complete system eg, demo didn't wow me, still bought it (don't ask why), an initial expensive cd/sacd change. Have done ok on trades, discounts, but prob lost an amount equivalent to a cheaper system for someone else, and this is wasteful by any definition. And I have a cdp, and two sets of amps collecting dust as I speak/type.
I actually hit an epiphany a couple of months ago, where a whole slew of changes (complete one brand cable loom, Duelunds and Lundahls in my spkrs, superb amp-spkr synergy development, GIK acoustic treatment, and moving of spkrs and listening position), have together crystallised in a sound I'm beyond happy with. At this point, and w/out bragging, I feel really proud of my efforts, and feel I've hit a near final destination of sorts. My thoughts were beyond a little investment in Shun Mooks, I'm done.
So why 2 months later, do I feel compelled to even consider tape - a whole new medium, a whole new level of expense, and a whole other level of commitment? I don't think it's anything to do w/dissatisfaction, I love my sound still.
And the more relevant q is, the costs are stupid for the quantities of music that can ever be truly enjoyed on it, as I can only really justify a maximum of 6-12 tapes a year.
If I go ahead, in a decade, will I feel a significant investment that gets me 60-120 tapes max was worth it, when the same budget spent on vinyl will get me 4000-5000 classical and jazz lps. Insanity for such poor spending choice, or worth it just for those "ultra wow" moments? You tell me.

 

[DaveyF]

Great thread Davey, I'm sure your recent contributions to my "reticence re R2R" thread was in your mind and yr PMs to me when starting this.
I've always tried to upgrade within financial limits (never taking out loans) and only if I get a significant upstick. I have made a couple of bad choices - my first complete system eg, demo didn't wow me, still bought it (don't ask why), an initial expensive cd/sacd change. Have done ok on trades, discounts, but prob lost an amount equivalent to a cheaper system for someone else, and this is wasteful by any definition. And I have a cdp, and two sets of amps collecting dust as I speak/type.
I actually hit an epiphany a couple of months ago, where a whole slew of changes (complete one brand cable loom, Duelunds and Lundahls in my spkrs, superb amp-spkr synergy development, GIK acoustic treatment, and moving of spkrs and listening position), have together crystallised in a sound I'm beyond happy with. At this point, and w/out bragging, I feel really proud of my efforts, and feel I've hit a near final destination of sorts. My thoughts were beyond a little investment in Shun Mooks, I'm done.
So why 2 months later, do I feel compelled to even consider tape - a whole new medium, a whole new level of expense, and a whole other level of commitment? I don't think it's anything to do w/dissatisfaction, I love my sound still.
And the more relevant q is, the costs are stupid for the quantities of music that can ever be truly enjoyed on it, as I can only really justify a maximum of 6-12 tapes a year.
If I go ahead, in a decade, will I feel a significant investment that gets me 60-120 tapes max was worth it, when the same budget spent on vinyl will get me 4000-5000 classical and jazz lps. Insanity for such poor spending choice, or worth it just for those "ultra wow" moments? You tell me.

Marc, you pose some excellent questions. I suspect (know??) that each of us has a specific answer to these questions, while differing to each, may be correct for each as well. I do believe that IF budget is irrelevant ( who can really say that?) then the answer becomes a lot easier. At that point, the acquisition of multiples of what would be perceived as the best, is the way to go. For the rest of us, some strategy and planning would seem to be prudent.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I have considered delaying retirement for ten years. I'm deadly serious!
I would say LOL, but I'm not sure that's appropriate...LOL

 

[DaveyF]

I have considered delaying retirement for ten years. I'm deadly serious!
I would say LOL, but I'm not sure that's appropriate...LOL

Marc, everyone has different priorities. I think that's ok. GF might not be so happy, LOL. BTW, a lot of the 'decisions' about acquiring gear can change drastically when the wife, GF, significant other is consulted, LOL. You know the old saying....'happy wife, happy life'....( applies to GF's as well BTW..).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I've built an audio system slowly over 20 years piece by piece. it had evolved up to maybe 6 months ago as a strong analog focus. in previous times, 10 years back, I had a significant portion of my source investment in the digital source area. but once I purchased the Playback Designs 9 years ago that was it and my analog continued to be improved. over time it did not make sense to invest more in digital, the ROI of the digital alternatives did not make sense. my approx. $15k investment from 2006 was all I needed.

then as I started to hear about new digital sounding better I started to investigate alternatives......and get excited about it. someone noticed my interest in new digital and PM'd me offering their CH Precision C1 digital player to me; I seriously considered it, but passed. but in my investigation of it I learned about the Trinity dac......and even though I had never seriously thought about spending $56k for a dac......I got excited at the prospect of my 3500 CD's all of a sudden sounding great to me again. it started to make sense to spend serious money on a PCM only dac. all that music now sounding great to me. at about that same time I noticed an almost brand new Trinity dac for sale at an attractive price. I worked out the purchase. this led to an upgraded server investment, and then to the acquisition of the Golden Gate for dsd.

I had not started out thinking about such a large investment, but the combination of being open to upgrading my digital after many years of no investment, all my dormant CD's sounding better, and then the used unit being there to jump on, made it make sense.

and it's been lots of fun and great listening. my analog centric friends think I'm a bit crazy. others can't understand why I did not get bigger into digital sooner. others think I'm crazy investing in PCM. there is no right answer for everyone. but in the end it made sense for me.

 

[Al M.]

Great question, Davey, and great and enjoyable responses so far.

Currently I have satisfied my main priorities for my system, vividness, dynamics, presence, tone, and great resolution of simultaneous musical strands from one another. The one thing I'd really want more is timbral resolution, e.g., on string quartets, even though my timbral resolution is already very good. On the other hand, today Peter A. and I listened again to Madfloyd's system and what struck me this time was the incredible level of openness and transparency on some recordings -- extremely close to the transparency of unamplified live music in the most open sounding venues (I had no idea that this was even possible from a system). I know I can never achieve this level of transparency without upgrading everything in my system at an expense much greater than put into my system to date, so I will not even try.

The additional timbral resolution, however, may be worth pursuing once I have more money available. Where does investment make the most sense for me? In the source, in a much better DAC. This DAC would also have to be fed with the cleanest power available, requiring upgrading of my power conditioner. Perhaps I should then upgrade my CD transport to a great dedicated server, e.g., a Baetis, as well (computers with their RF noise need not apply). I also should have a better rack to minimize vibrations.

That's it. As I said, I have everything else I really want (without having to revamp my entire system, e.g. for transparency, see above): vividness, dynamics, presence, tone, and great resolution of simultaneous musical strands from one another.

What does not make sense to me? Upgrading speakers and amps. My combo (while having been greatly modified along the way) has served me well for 24 years now, and I don't consider it the main limiting factor for more timbral resolution. No, the source is most limiting. Same for my analog cables, now 22 years old, no upgrade planned. Digital cable? Yes, that makes sense to me, it's part of the DAC issue. My subwoofer? It delivers really great bass in my room, and not just in my opinion; no reason for upgrade.

As for the room, I had to upgrade mine significantly with acoustic treatment to exclude it as the limiting factor, and upgrading components before that would not have made sense to me. However, room treatment does not always have to be the highest priority. Today Peter A. and I enjoyed with Madfloyd's system the best sound that we both have ever heard, and the room is not treated much apart from good carpeting and placement of furniture. This does not mean that also this room could not benefit from additional treatment.

Now to the software:

I am a music lover first, and an audiophile second. I love the CD medium because it harbors all the music I want. I do not pursue a format just for the sound. Tape? Does not make sense to me, I don't have great financial resources for a medium that is extremely limited in musical output *). Hi-rez digital? Does not make sense to me, too much limitation in available music as well, even though not as severe as with tape.

Vinyl? Now that's much better. At Madfloyd's place we listened exclusively to vinyl and I enjoyed it immensely (as did Peter of course). Yet three things are an issue for me:

1. New music is of limited availability on vinyl (while I have to admit that I was drooling over Madfloyd's collection).
2. While I can listen through clicks and pops on other people's systems with ease, on my own system they would bother me too much.
3. While in absolute terms I know that vinyl can offer greater resolution than Redbook on the best recordings/pressings, a great turntable that would be as good, let alone significantly better than, my current Redbook digital would cost a lot of money, money that I do not want to spend.

So this is what makes and does not make sense to me. For other people it will be different -- we all are different and we all may have our individual preferences.

One problem: some people apparently do not even know what they want from a system. They want it all and don't seem to have priorities that would allow them to find the right compromises. And compromise you must, unless you have unlimited financial resources. So you better know your priorities; mine are clear, see above.
_________

*) Marc, that also answers your question from my perspective.

 

[spiritofmusic]

For me, an area I really didn't think at the start of my journey two decades ago that I would spend big on, is tweaks/enhancements. I always ran to the 90/10 rule, ie 10% of the system total on cables etc.
But as fate would have it, it looks like I'm going to have spent as much money on cables/power/grounding/isolation-supports/vibration management in the final analysis, as I have on the components themselves.
Quite how I came to this sorry, extravagant state of affairs I don't know, but I do believe once you have gear that "speaks" to you, one should call it quits on big ticket components swaps, and instead max and enhance it's inherent voicing via tweaks.
So for me, this large amount of extra spending has proved economically sound.
Now, I'm ever so slightly being hypocritical here, since I've gone in two decades thru 3 analog front ends, 4 digital, 5 amp combinations, and 4 loudspeakers. But my current crop of gear has been chosen really well, I don't feel any great drive to change further (although a top of the line preamp, and new flagship speakers, both from the brands I'm already with, will call to me at some stage), and the tweaks I've invested in seem to be getting as much extra performance wrought, w/no change in the inherent character of the sound I love so much.
My dalliance w/tape is a parallel universe consideration, and my psychiatrist and barman are helping me w/that abherent thought process .
Like Al, my to-ing and fro-ing is coming down on the side of not going tape. For his reason in the final analysis, but also because I'm struggling to get a consensus from all those kind enough to offer me advice that helps me chart a clear path.

 

[BlueFox]

From my perspective, I have been on an audio upgrade now for about 15 years, and am just about finished, except for, perhaps, some HT upgrades.

Growing up in a home where my father always had music playing I seem to have inherited that gene, and had a nice stereo in the 70s and 80s. However, something happened, and in the 90s I basically stopped listening to music, and the stereo was rarely used. Then in 98 I bought my first DVD player and started using the stereo components with it for a good sounding TV/DVD experience. I enjoyed that so much I started building a nice HT in the early 2000s, and really enjoyed that experience. One night around 2005 I put a CD in the DVD player and sat up. This sounds pretty good, I thought, and started listening to music again.

Not long after that I dusted off the stereo in the living room, and for the last 10 years I have been going through different gear to eke out a bit more quality from the sound. Now I am at the point where I am very satisfied with the sound, and spend much more time with it than the HT. While I had to dip into the retirement savings to get the gear, my logic was I may as well enjoy it now because once I retire I certainly will not be buying any more stereo gear. Besides, I plan on working until 70 to increase the SS payments, and that gives me time to recover the savings.

At this point, the only thing I even think of in regard to the stereo is if the rumored S5 v2 upgrade does happen I probably will do it. However, I enjoy the stereo so much as is that I can easily not upgrade. Of course, this enjoyment comes from using my ears. I have no idea how it measures, and can care even less.

 

[Steve Williams]

Bud

My mantra in this hobby has always been, "let your ears and your wallet guide you"

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bud, we have some parallels, at least where final changes that have made you settled have originated from - I believe in your case the Shunyata cables, and in my case Sablon Gran Reservas cables, and in the last couple of years radically addressing power w/balanced transformer and grounding. My spkr mods have been transformative, and GIKs and geometry changes have been integral too.
When I realised that a week after I moved my spkrs to be toed apart a little more and I sat a little closer to them, that I was not thinking about the reproduction, but the message, of the music, I knew I had nailed it.
And it seems like from yr other thread, very similar w/you. A good feeling, yes?
The promise of tape was really to add spice to proceedings, get a new kind of buzz not dependent on the rest of the system, but just as a unique experience. That uniqueness put on ice for a while.
My thoughts turn to maxxing tone via Shun Mook Diamond Resonators under gear, getting dedicated lines sorted. And then the big one, a possible new room just for the audio.
For me, these last three areas are pretty mandatory (unless I get lucky in my new house, and a new room is not needed), and it's going to mean deprioritising the tentative move to tape, and also any upstick in digital (planned GG to rip pcm, and allow dsd, x2, x4).
I am indeed making a hard decision to divert funds from more lp purchases by spending a sizeable amount on Mooks (dedicated lines nowhere near as pricey), and if I need a new room, I'm hoping to pinch it from any funds left over on moving. My GF will only be too happy to spend big to get my music out of her hair !

 

[BlueFox]

Spirit, yes our path does parallel. I have to admit that the improvements resulting from power and cables has absolutely amazed me. I never would have expected, or even thought of, this ten years ago. Last year I bought a house on Maryland's Eastern Shore for retirement, and my main thinking about it is where to add dedicated 20 amp circuits for the stereo and HT.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Spending on speakers , room and DRC make the most sense to me , the rest is just fine tuning
Software wise , tidal and my ripped collection has all I need for the rest of my life ..

 

[Blizzard]

What makes sense to me is the warm glow of my Hypex HxR voltage regulators keeping me warm this evening . Van Morrison's voice on "Crazy Love" is spectacular through this new amp setup Fully discrete pure Class A biased input stage with Hypex Ncore NC500 output stage.

View attachment 22881

 

[sujay]

Hi,

I read through the thread and was not surprised at all with the perspective provided by all, most of which echo mine. In my now decade old hobby of audiophilia, I have encountered numerous decision making points myself, driven by constraints of budget, logic, guilt and sometime pure common sense......that of ensuring the whatever I do in terms of tweaks and/or upgrades has to have some semblance of 'balance'. I am happy to say that, fortunately, each of these decisions have yielded positive results and substantially so, for example when I moved from stereo to monos, upgraded my preamp, speakers or power cables and even the rather esoteric tweaks like stein music Harmonisers. Would I have acted differently if budget were no constraint? Maybe...but I am clear about one thing....that I have not and will never take a loan to buy a component as was stated in this thread by someone else as well. Leveraging to fuel my hobby just doesn't make sense to me. I will only leverage to buy a house!

Coming to the original question of what makes sense, my take is that this is too personal and relative and complicated to conclude one way or the other! I have somehow found a state of 'dynamic equilibrium' where I know that I will keep tweaking and changing but with a modicum of sense and logic which I am personally comfortable with. Mind you, this state of equilibrium will be different for all of us depending on numerous factors.

To summarize with a rather stark example - a friend visited me and heard the system and was positively and visibly enthralled. Then he made the mistake of asking me the price of some of the components and I, in turn, made the mistake of telling him! He nearly fainted at the prospect that the cost implication of this hobby could rival a decent mortgage!!

Cheers

Sujay

 

[DaveyF]

Al, that's a great post. I do think you summed up extremely well.
I have observed on many occasions that some fellow a'philes do not in fact have priorities or goals that are clearly understood. This seems to lead to constant gear swapping, constant flip flopping on what is their expectation for their systems and unfortunately a great deal of disappointment. In some instances, I suspect this disappointment has lead to a change of hobby. I do think that that many dealers and manufacturer's are also guilty of propagating this disappointment. Steve's mantra seems to make a lot of sense....question is how many people follow it?

 

[mullard88]

My reason for being an audiophile is I like music and I care deeply how the music is reproduced. So anything that makes me want to turn on the music and make me appreciate the music would be a sensible purchase.