What determines "believability of the reproduction illusion"

morricab

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The qualities of a system I look for is that they don't get in the way of the music - I have zero interest in the speakers sounding like "something special", I want them to be invisible, pure and simple. And these two examples do that - they stop me focusing on the speakers, and the system - it's the music that is centre stage.

This is what the believability illusion is about - that the bits used for achieving it become totally irrelevant, they're merely a means to an end ...

As an example of YouTube being able to convey how a system is able to get many things in the sound to jell, I would submit this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzO_zRP6FWg (suggest using 720p setting)

I nominated the Tune Audio room as my second best sound at the show this year. See my report on Positive Feedback.

That said I think the Aries Cerat room from 2014 is even better. I was in both rooms multiple times and I am even in the room in 2014 when the video clip on YouTube was shot !!
 

morricab

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Out of a phone booth? Luckily, you're not correct, since no recordings were ever done in this fashion - unless as a gimmick! :) What you always get is the impression of musicians' output, or pure synthesised sounds, created or fashioned in a space which is as large as that at the time of the music making, or matching what the effects units were set to. And it's always believable, what varies is the level of noise that comes along for the ride - a very 'primitive' recording has a large quotient of accompanying non-musical sound, but this sits in a different space from that of the performance, subjectively.

A real life analogy is listening to a live classical performance in a hall, which is perfectly silent - that's the good recording; the worst recording is the same performance with a huge array of noise makers besides you, and rain falling heavily on the roof. In both cases the integrity of the music is there, the contrast is the amount of unrelated sound that's also in the picture.

Electronically generated issues are not the same as natural sound interference. Only true noise can stand apart from the music. Unfortunately, a lot of what comes along for the ride are distortions and not just noise. If it is signal correlated it cannot be separated and serves to damage the believability. The best recordings, like the best hifi, go through significant effort to minimize these distortions.
 

fas42

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Electronically generated issues are not the same as natural sound interference. Only true noise can stand apart from the music. Unfortunately, a lot of what comes along for the ride are distortions and not just noise. If it is signal correlated it cannot be separated and serves to damage the believability. The best recordings, like the best hifi, go through significant effort to minimize these distortions.
Yes, the level of correlation of distortions to the music is part of the picture - but much of these distortions are "sympathetic" or are not a hindrance to getting the musical message across - tube distortion is a classic example of this. I used to believe that many recordings would always sound awful, even after I got convincing sound happening for much of my collection; this progressed to a handful that were unrescuable after some years of experiment and effort; until finally, I accepted that every one of them could come good, if sufficient efforts were made to get the best out of the replay chain - hence my motto, there's no such thing as a bad recording. This forces me to acknowledge that the problem is on my side, not the recording's - as a result, I end up pushing the system to a point where I get satisfying replay of those bad'uns ...
 

Jim Smith

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Yes, the level of correlation of distortions to the music is part of the picture - but much of these distortions are "sympathetic" or are not a hindrance to getting the musical message across - tube distortion is a classic example of this. I used to believe that many recordings would always sound awful, even after I got convincing sound happening for much of my collection; this progressed to a handful that were unrescuable after some years of experiment and effort; until finally, I accepted that every one of them could come good, if sufficient efforts were made to get the best out of the replay chain - hence my motto, there's no such thing as a bad recording. This forces me to acknowledge that the problem is on my side, not the recording's - as a result, I end up pushing the system to a point where I get satisfying replay of those bad'uns ...

So how did you fix the recordings with gross compression?
 

fas42

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So how did you fix the recordings with gross compression?
Gross compression is one of the hardest, I do agree. What happens when the system is of sufficient competence is that the subjective impression is of the sound being extremely aggressive - not that it's distorted in any way, just that the musicians are trying to wear you down with a barrage of sound, it hammers at you with constant intensity - an analogy might be a symphonic work, which consisted of variations on an end of work climax throughout the piece. This is not distorted sound, but it's unrelenting in its driving energy - the result is exhausting to listen to, there is not enough light and shade to balance the impact, as an emotional journey.

So, this is a fault of the composition itself, so to speak; any piece of music that was marked fff throughout would be considered poorly if played live, unless it was a deliberate effect intended by the writer and performers to occur!

Since I see this as a 'fault' of the performance of the piece in itself as a musical event, I either accept the intensity hit as part of the "message" - or would consider reversing the compression. I have tried doing this to a couple of pop items, which used simple compression techniques too savagely; and was rewarded with a much better balanced sound, with no obvious artifacts from the fiddling.
 

fas42

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If the original musical event is 'awful', and is intentionally made so, then there is only so much that can be done - a child playing a recorder extremely badly, say ... (we have an election on, and a satirical comedy show "tested" candidates' patience at public gatherings, by having a "proud mother" have "her child" play an appalling drone, continuously - how long before the smile evaporated, the stopwatch was on ... :p ;))

Work's being done on getting software to unmix recordings, eventually one will have smart algorithms to digest the mess, and restore some normality to what's been damaged ... which is a different exercise from recordings where they tried to capture as much of the event as possible, within the limitations of the technology used.
 

BruceD

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Shesssh!--Well it won't be before time Fas--I'm one of the pack that has gone back to enjoying Vinyl--can't say I miss the Digital "sojourn"

at least in it's present form--so there maybe a light at the end of the Tunnel?:p

BruceD
 

morricab

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If the original musical event is 'awful', and is intentionally made so, then there is only so much that can be done - a child playing a recorder extremely badly, say ... (we have an election on, and a satirical comedy show "tested" candidates' patience at public gatherings, by having a "proud mother" have "her child" play an appalling drone, continuously - how long before the smile evaporated, the stopwatch was on ... :p ;))

Work's being done on getting software to unmix recordings, eventually one will have smart algorithms to digest the mess, and restore some normality to what's been damaged ... which is a different exercise from recordings where they tried to capture as much of the event as possible, within the limitations of the technology used.

So, in the here and now you DO admit there are bad recordings...semantics aside.
 

morricab

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Yes, the level of correlation of distortions to the music is part of the picture - but much of these distortions are "sympathetic" or are not a hindrance to getting the musical message across - tube distortion is a classic example of this. I used to believe that many recordings would always sound awful, even after I got convincing sound happening for much of my collection; this progressed to a handful that were unrescuable after some years of experiment and effort; until finally, I accepted that every one of them could come good, if sufficient efforts were made to get the best out of the replay chain - hence my motto, there's no such thing as a bad recording. This forces me to acknowledge that the problem is on my side, not the recording's - as a result, I end up pushing the system to a point where I get satisfying replay of those bad'uns ...

I disagree with you, there are no "sympathetic" distortions only those that can be masked effectively by the ear brain and those that cannot and degrade sound quality.

Some psychoacoustic studies have drllied down and found out more or less which are which.

All electronics generate some audible, sound degrading distortions...some inherent in their designs, some in the execution and most because of both.

You might be cleaning up execution issues but you cannot, for example, change the harmonic distortion pattern bias of a push/pull amp from odd order to even order or make its pattern monotonic.
 

fas42

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So, in the here and now you DO admit there are bad recordings...semantics aside.
There are recordings which are bad because the artistic intent is faulty - what I speak of is that the intent can be fully revealed, so, they are not "bad" in that sense ...

I disagree with you, there are no "sympathetic" distortions only those that can be masked effectively by the ear brain and those that cannot and degrade sound quality.
The ones that cannot, in normal systems, are the ones to be concerned about - sometimes they enhance the playback, listen to a late 50's pop recording and wallow in the rich, golden glow imparted by the recording chain - this is distortion, but I like it! But other variants do disturb, injected by much more modern playback chains - these need to be reduced to inaudibility.

All electronics generate some audible, sound degrading distortions...some inherent in their designs, some in the execution and most because of both.

You might be cleaning up execution issues but you cannot, for example, change the harmonic distortion pattern bias of a push/pull amp from odd order to even order or make its pattern monotonic.
The exercise is always to reduce whatever artifacts are there to a level where they don't disturb the illusion - I can't speak for tube designs, because I have never dabbled in these; all my systems have always been 100% SS.
 

morricab

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There are recordings which are bad because the artistic intent is faulty - what I speak of is that the intent can be fully revealed, so, they are not "bad" in that sense ...


The ones that cannot, in normal systems, are the ones to be concerned about - sometimes they enhance the playback, listen to a late 50's pop recording and wallow in the rich, golden glow imparted by the recording chain - this is distortion, but I like it! But other variants do disturb, injected by much more modern playback chains - these need to be reduced to inaudibility.


The exercise is always to reduce whatever artifacts are there to a level where they don't disturb the illusion - I can't speak for tube designs, because I have never dabbled in these; all my systems have always been 100% SS.

There are artifacts with SS that you cannot eliminate which will always disturb the illusion.
 

thedudeabides

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There are artifacts with SS that you cannot eliminate which will always disturb the illusion.

With all due respect, another absolute, gross generalization that is, from a practical perspective, meaningless.

I thought the forum had decided that these types of absolutists statements are insulting, in poor taste and invite conflict. :eek:
 

morricab

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With all due respect, another absolute, gross generalization that is, from a practical perspective, meaningless.

I thought the forum had decided that these types of absolutists statements are insulting, in poor taste and invite conflict. :eek:

I guess you don't like to correlate data with psychoacoustics. That's cool it keeps the doors wide open for anything a listener likes is right.

Why would you be insulted?? I could see if a SS amp had feelings it might feel offended... you are not by chance a SS amp?

There is one SS topology that might work and that is single ended.

Just so tube guys don't feel left out most of those are wrong too...

My guess is though you have no idea why I would make such a statement or what research led to such conclusions...another knee jerk reactionary commentary. Why don't you try to tell me from a technical POV why you think my statements are wrong. I can give you lots of reasons why I think they are right.
 

jkeny

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I guess you don't like to correlate data with psychoacoustics. That's cool it keeps the doors wide open for anything a listener likes is right.

Why would you be insulted?? I could see if a SS amp had feelings it might feel offended... you are not by chance a SS amp?

There is one SS topology that might work and that is single ended.

Just so tube guys don't feel left out most of those are wrong too...

My guess is though you have no idea why I would make such a statement or what research led to such conclusions...another knee jerk reactionary commentary. Why don't you try to tell me from a technical POV why you think my statements are wrong. I can give you lots of reasons why I think they are right.

Yea, I'd prefer to find out more about this rather than reject it out of hand - please tell more.
 

fas42

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My take would be that historically SS artifacts were more disturbing, unpleasant than tube issues - one needs to know how to reduce the distortion of both types of circuit to the point of inaudibility; the end goal is that a recording sounds identical played on both types of circuit. If they don't, then the engineering is not good enough ...
 

thedudeabides

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Just so tube guys don't feel left out most of those are wrong too

This guy is quite amazing. He appears to be the final arbiter of truth.

Long live the King.

PS: And morricab, please attach all your research that validates that "an illusion", which by nature is clearly subjective, can be quantified as an "objective", absolute truth.:cool:
 
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thedudeabides

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My guess is though you have no idea why I would make such a statement or what research led to such conclusions...

Almost sounds like someone currently running for office.
 

morricab

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This guy is quite amazing. He appears to be the final arbiter of truth.

Long live the King.

PS: And morricab, please attach all your research that validates that "an illusion", which by nature is clearly subjective, can be quantified as an "objective", absolute truth.:cool:

No, just someone who reads research in this area and understands how it applies to the real world. Why don't you tell me what makes you think all concepts are equally valid?? The human ear/brain evolved over a couple of million years and it has some rather specific requirements for understanding what is natural sounding and what is not. Most real world electronics violate this in rather obvious ways.
 

morricab

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Almost sounds like someone currently running for office.

I see you prefer to try to insult rather than to try to prove me otherwise...figured that would be your approach given your hostile post above...

If you have nothing constructive to add that might counter what I am saying then take your knee jerk responses elsewhere.

Better yet, go read something on the subject and then we can have a healthy debate.
 

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