Wave Kinetics NVS Reference Turntable Review on Positive Feedback

[Mike Lavigne]

I am curious how a non-functioning turntable could be tested for speed accuracy.

It is also interesting that a manufacturing and repair facility could make such a demand on an independent audio forum.

the demand was made by CGI on the contactor, not with the forum. Phoenix contacted the forum about the deletions.

I am also curious now about the rest of the story. How did the turntable become non-functioning, and is it possible to repair it?

ask Ed the owner. it's his turntable. and his business to talk about it.

I think, in fairness, disparaging remarks and accusations about Phoenix Engineering should also be removed from this thread. Once the decision to edit the content of this thread was made, why just not remove everything involved with this recent discussion? Why leave the plug for the repair facility and the accusations against a fellow member?

i just stated the facts.

i asked Ron to remove all the posts, but he said for me to post the facts about the unauthorized information being posted. he felt it would be more honest about the harm done to the brand. can't un-ring the bell.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you Mike.

It’s hard to quantify harm. The disparaging remarks about Phoenix Engineering cannot be unrung either.

I still agree with Ron’s earlier comment that such testing is a good thing in general and I would love to see more of it shared for the benefit of the hobbyists.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you Mike.

It’s hard to quantify harm. The disparaging remarks about Phoenix Engineering cannot be unrung either.

I still agree with Ron’s earlier comment that such testing is a good thing in general and I would love to see more of it shared for the benefit of the hobbyists.

when owners of products want to allow dissecting of their gear by parties of unknown agendas and have them publicized then i agree that stuff is ok. but that is a lot of ducks to line up. and when they don't line up there is a piper to pay.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It is also interesting that a manufacturing and repair facility could make such a demand on an independent audio forum.

Why are you assuming the demand was made upon WBF?

 

[Ron Resnick]

i asked Ron to remove all the posts

I reminded Mike that, just as with any other member who is not a moderator, I have no authority to remove the posts of other members.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I posted in Post #57 hereof:

"But unless there is a reasonable basis to believe the measurement was not performed honestly or correctly it sounds to me like a public service."

When Mike contacted me about this controversy I said to him that his information suggests "a reasonable basis to believe the measurement was not performed honestly or correctly," and I encouraged him to post the information he told me.

 

[dminches]

@Mike Lavigne , thanks for doing the legwork on this.

 

[PeterA]

when owners of products want to allow dissecting of their gear by parties of unknown agendas and have them publicized then i agree that stuff is ok. but that is a lot of ducks to line up. and when they don't line up there is a piper to pay.

I get that. But from what I gather, a dealer sent a broken turntable to a company to fix it and they brought in Bill to solve some problems. Phoenix Engineering is highly regarded in the industry, he’s not some rogue guy. When he analyzes the performance of a controller or a motor, it’s going to be a very accurate assessment.

I understand questioning someone you don’t know about his agenda, but I don’t think you’re questioning the results of his analysis, or are you? I did find some of the other comments from readers of the thread about iron core motors and clogging quite interesting. This is the kind of information and discussion that I think should be welcome on a forum like this.

 

[PeterA]

Why are you assuming the demand was made upon WBF?

Ron, I was mistaken and I thought initially that the manufacturer contacted WBF. Mike corrected me with this comment: “the demand was made by CGI on the contactor, not with the forum. Phoenix contacted the forum about the deletions.”

 

[Mike Lavigne]

@Mike Lavigne , thanks for doing the legwork on this.

it did not smell right. and honestly the wheels were already turning from the posts before i got any communications. i did not instigate any action. just reported what i found out and did reach out to Ron.

 

[PeterA]

I posted in Post #57 hereof:

"But unless there is a reasonable basis to believe the measurement was not performed honestly or correctly it sounds to me like a public service."

When Mike contacted me about this controversy I said to him that his information suggests "a reasonable basis to believe the measurement was not performed honestly or correctly," and I encouraged him to post the information he told me.

What evidence is there that the measurements were not performed honestly or correctly? As far as I know, Phoenix Engineering is a highly respected consultant and contractor.

There definitely seems more to the story, but I understand that it won’t be discussed here.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I get that. But from what I gather, a dealer sent a broken turntable to a company to fix it and they brought in Bill to solve some problems. Phoenix Engineering is highly regarded in the industry, he’s not some rogue guy. When he analyzes the performance of a controller or a motor, it’s going to be a very accurate assessment.

I understand questioning someone you don’t know about his agenda, but I don’t think you’re questioning the results of his analysis, or are you? I did find some of the other comments from readers of the thread about iron core motors and clogging quite interesting. This is the kind of information and discussion that I think should be welcome on a forum like this.

i will leave you to try and put lipstick on this pig.

 

[dminches]

I get that. But from what I gather, a dealer sent a broken turntable to a company to fix it and they brought in Bill to solve some problems. Phoenix Engineering is highly regarded in the industry, he’s not some rogue guy. When he analyzes the performance of a controller or a motor, it’s going to be a very accurate assessment.

I do not know what was wrong with THIS turntable but several of us NVS owners are having issues with the touch screen which has been redesigned. They are in the process of sending new ones out or arranging for them to be installed. If that is the case then Phoenix Engineering would have no role in this because the contractor has already produced new touchscreens.

 

[Ron Resnick]

What evidence is there that the measurements were not performed honestly or correctly?

I wrote "suggests," and you're trying to turn it into "evidence."

There definitely seems more to the story

Maybe, maybe not. Hardly "definitely," since you (and I) don't know anymore than has been posted here.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I understand that it won’t be discussed here.

What is the basis of this conspiracy theory?

The whole thing is being discussed here right now.

 

[PeterA]

What is the basis of this conspiracy theory?

The whole thing is being discussed here right now.

I’m not sure I would refer to it as a conspiracy theory. A turntable was tested for speed accuracy and the results were shared here. Regardless of the conditions and circumstances, I don’t think anyone is questioning the accuracy of the measurements. The measurements and related comments are critical of this turntable. Someone complained and the post got deleted. I hope other critical comments on the forum about certain products don’t get deleted

I just have the impression that Mike is not going to discuss it any further and he might not know anything anyway.

A nonfunctioning NVS was sent to be repaired. We don’t know what was wrong with it. Some have non-functioning touch screens. They are being repaired.

A “rogue employee” somehow got together with Phoenix Engineering and did what are described as unauthorized measurements and the results were shared here. Nothing has been presented to suggest the measurements are inaccurate. A motor with an iron core causes cogging and that is reflected in the measurements that were shown here. This sample of the turntable does not meet published specifications. There’s nothing to suggest that that statement is false, but it is critical of the product and it got deleted.

Yes it is being discussed here, but this is about all we know. We have seen some interesting discussions about turntables recently and I hope we see more but it does not seem to me that we’re going to learn much more about the performance of the NVS here or more information about this specific sample.

As I see it, there is no pig on which to put lipstick.

 

[tima]

But unless there is a reasonable basis to believe the measurement was not performed honestly or correctly it sounds to me like a public service. I would be curious to have this test performed on a variety of popular turntables.

I would too. WBF should engage with a professional evaluator to have several tables tested. String drive as well as direct drive. That actually would be a public service, giving back to the membership for all that we have given to. WBF

Btw, I'm curious about which of the TOS were violated by Phoenix Engineering that caused his post removal ? Was he given a warning?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Btw, I'm curious about which of the TOS were violated by Phoenix Engineering that caused his post removal ? Was he given a warning?

Another delivery from the PA & TA Assumption Manufacturing Co.?

I am not aware of any violation of any TOS. I don't believe anything "caused his post removal."

I believe Phoenix Engineering voluntarily deleted his own posts.

 

[PeterA]

Another delivery from the PA & TA Assumption Manufacturing Co.?

Let’s keep it about the content of the posts and not make it personal about fellow members. Surely you are familiar with the TOS.

 

[tima]

I am not aware of any violation of any TOS. I don't believe anything "caused his post removal."

Presumably whomever reported the NVS post to CGI who then 'demanded' Phoenix remove the post was the root cause. At least that's how I see it.

Likely the test results came from repairing the turntable in an effort to obtain its claimed specs. I seriously doubt Phoenix Engineering is going to risk its reputation by posting false results. I see no intentional dishonesty here. Maybe Phoenix did not "own" the results of his tests and that is the bone of contention - but we don't know.

It is easy to understand how Wave Kinetics (is it just one guy now?), their repair facility, Mike Lavigne, dminches and other owners are not happy to learn those test results, much less see them in public. Nonethelss, it is not a radical unheard-of event for high-end manufacturers to overstate the case for their product. It is unusual to read about a turntable actually tested in the way it was. But there were no comments about its sound. There is a moral aspect to this incident that is not entirely straightforward, but I won't go there.