Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[sbnx]

Todd, thanks, your comments on set up here are interesting (my highlighting).
Note that my Trios are the older ones where the tweeter horn cannot be moved to time align it. I'll caveat the photo below by stating for the record the set up of my Trios in this new room are still a bit of a work in progress but the requirements are definitely different to a flat ceiling.

These have been in 3 rooms now. In previous rooms I agree the sound has always been best with the tweeters pointing pretty much straight at the listeners head. If I set them like that here the life goes out of the music and the image becomes too central.

In this room with the "cathedral" ceiling they definitely sound better angled out a bit, with the direct point being about 2.5 feet behind my head. In this position the tonality dynamics and soundstaging just seem more convincing. (NB it isn't really practical to move them even further into the room, though I am experimenting with this. I'm sitting further away than 83% ish. )
My paranoia is that I have no idea whether I am tone deaf, or why the ceiling would have that much effect. So I keep fiddling with placement.
Thanks for making me think!

View attachment 128348

Hello Chop,

Really nice system. I love the blue. It was actually my second choice. I have never worked with the G2 speakers. Since the drivers are not time aligned, I would not doubt that pointing the tweeter right at the ear may not be the best choice. One would need to play with the toe-in and rake to find a spot that works well.

I am not sure I understand your comment about pulling them out farther. Sometimes pictures can be deceiving. Is there something that prevents them from moving out a little more. Sometimes it really doesn't take much. The speakers can go from not sounding very good at all to really nice in the span of 3-6".

~Todd

 

[sbnx]

It surprises me somewhat that so many Trio owners place them with tweeters closest together.

I would have thought that the bass should be marginally better if a little further from side walls / corners and that the image-generating treble should be marginally better if a little further apart.

Do Trio users place them where the User Guide suggests, or do they experiment with them switched around?

My Duos don't have this choice as all drivers are vertically aligned - in theory a better situation than the non-alligned Trio geometry!

I did not play with the tweeter on the outside. I did think about it some. One issue that I would run into is the spacehorn won't snug up close to the speaker with the tweeter on the outside since it would hit the tweeter module. There are all of these things that we have to juggle due to the physical speaker design.

 

[Chop]

Hello Chop,

Really nice system. I love the blue. It was actually my second choice. I have never worked with the G2 speakers. Since the drivers are not time aligned, I would not doubt that pointing the tweeter right at the ear may not be the best choice. One would need to play with the toe-in and rake to find a spot that works well.

I am not sure I understand your comment about pulling them out farther. Sometimes pictures can be deceiving. Is there something that prevents them from moving out a little more. Sometimes it really doesn't take much. The speakers can go from not sounding very good at all to really nice in the span of 3-6".

~Todd

Hi Todd

Thanks.
What I mean about pulling them out farther is that the room is 27' long and the front of the tweeter horn is (only) slightly over 6' from the front wall.

"Sometimes it really doesn't take much" - You are correct, the last movement was to move them about 1" + a gentle kick forwards )) and each speaker 3/4 inch further apart. That made a disproportionate difference to the soundstage and dynamics.
From what I have read on this thread and elsewhere it seems... more than possible that moving them further than their current % into the room may yield further benefits. I'm doing this on my own and going slowly with incremental changes then listening for a bit. She Who Must Be Obeyed wouldn't cope easily with my pulling them 2' further forward in one go! Anyways, I'm not sure its necessary, I prefer a less than in your face presentation and don't like to sit on top of them - they never seemed to integrate properly when I have them like that. .

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

hello Chop
see you have same Trio´s as I had...
tip...the frames are magnetic and the sound improves much by simply leading the speaker wires on the outside of frames and not through
I also lifted midhorns to make room for centering tweeter

 

[sbnx]

hello Chop
see you have same Trio´s as I had...
tip...the frames are magnetic and the sound improves much by simply leading the speaker wires on the outside of frames and not through
I also lifted midhorns to make room for centering tweeter
View attachment 128360

I recall discussion on some forums about people running the cables outside the frame and also upgrading the speaker cable (wiring). People were reporting good results as you say.

How did the tweeter modification go? Did you have any issues with integrating the top horn with the bottom horn at the crossover point after the tweeter move?

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

no
main issue with Trio was lobing which was fixed with tweeter
also
midbasshorn has lots of output up to 2K!
that masked and interfered with the midrange horn
we remedied that with a 15µF cap in parallell after the series inductor in the midbass crossover
I had them for 12 years, so I did lots of crazy shit with them
one was replacing cheap Community midrange driver with TAD TD-4001

actually at ETF in Berlin they tested TAD 4001 in an Avantgarde Trio "kugelwellenhorn" and it ended up in same league as Klangfilm combo in a shootout
that made me curious

 

[sbnx]

no
main issue with Trio was lobing which was fixed with tweeter
also
midbasshorn has lots of output up to 2K!
that masked and interfered with the midrange horn
if I remember correct we remedied that with a 15µF cap in parallell on the input of the midbass crossover
I had them for 12 years, so I did lots of crazy shit with them
one was replacing cheap Community midrange driver with TAD TD-4001

I love it. Make the product your own!!!

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I also made the Trio into "Quattro" by adding a JBL 2405 slot tweeter from 10K
they could be angled for best integration and soundstage, exactly like Living Voice Olympian and their TAD ET-703 tweeters

 

[Kozak170]

one was replacing cheap Community midrange driver with TAD TD-4001

Was the older version of the Community M200 CD with aluminum diaphragm used in the first Gen of Trios? AFAIK, in the G2 generation, Avantgarde used the newer series of this CD with Mylar diaphragm for the midrange, which later changed the diaphragm material to PEEK (polyether ketone thermoplastic) in the XD series, all Community versions not used the phase plug And as AG said, the 16 ohms version with mylar diaphragm is completely superior to the 8 ohms version with aluminum diaphragm.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Possibly, but it was still a USD 200 driver

 

[Chop]

I recall discussion on some forums about people running the cables outside the frame and also upgrading the speaker cable (wiring). People were reporting good results as you say.

How did the tweeter modification go? Did you have any issues with integrating the top horn with the bottom horn at the crossover point after the tweeter move?

My wiring is still inside the frames but has all been upgraded to Yamamura Churchill Millennium 4000.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

My wiring is still inside the frames but has all been upgraded to Yamamura Churchill Millennium 4000.

the magnetic field around the cables creates a "turbulence" like distortion, whatever cables you use
like most noise; you won´t know you had it until it´s gone
and the overall sound will be cleaner and "grit" free

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

just try re-routing the cables outside...it´s not irreversible
I think this is more important than cable itself

 

[Tam Lin]

just try re-routing the cables outside...it´s not irreversible
I think this is more important than cable itself

I have Trio Omegas and I replaced all the internal wiring with the same litz wire I use to connect the Trios to the amps - separate pairs for each horn and woofer. I also replaced the crossover caps. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/duelund-cap-upgrade.27695/. In addition, I stabilize each trio with 145lbs of lead.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

try to add the 15µF cap in #286 as well
the midbass should be lopassed at about 600, but had healthy output to 3K!!!?
It´ll clean up the midbass and midrange considerably
also reversible .........I used Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil.....

 

[DasguteOhr]

try to add the 15µF cap in #286 as well
the midbass should be lopassed at about 600, but had healthy output to 3K!!!?
It´ll clean up the midbass and midrange considerably
also reversible .........I used Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil.....

Supreme silver in oil 15uf where to get? I only know 10uf really big L 110mm× 49mm thick cost 320€per piece. The biggest they build today

MCap® SUPREME Classic Silber.Öl

www.mundorf.com

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I guess I used some other Supreme or parallelled...I used loads of SiO in many places
just use a good film cap.....the main thing is to clean up the midbass chaos

btw I have loads of SiO for sale after I replaced them with Duelund CAST cu in my 4003 hipass

 

[DasguteOhr]

I guess I used some other Supreme or parallelled...I used loads of SiO in many places
just use a good film cap.....the main thing is to clean up the midbass chaos

btw I have loads of SiO for sale after I replaced them with Duelund CAST cu in my 4003 hipass

SIO are really great for tweeters..clean detailed sound no a bit agressive i use them.
The best i know for midrange audyn true copper cap max but too expensive 10uf~ 1100€ per piece mundorf supreme evo alu in oil sounds pretty 15uf~ 90€ my tip

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

good tip
I have several pairs of different Evos lying around too

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

SIO are really great for tweeters..clean detailed sound no a bit agressive i use them.
The best i know for midrange audyn true copper cap max but too expensive 10uf~ 1100€ per piece mundorf supreme evo alu in oil sounds pretty 15uf~ 90€ my tip

did you try Duelund Cast cu?