Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[bonzo75]

I have only heard DeVore Gibbon minimonitors (at home), but they sounded colored as hell. Everything had this pervasive wooden cabinet coloration. It was fun for 10 minutes, but after that purely annoying.

I hope the larger speakers are of better construction, but my expectations are not high. Cabinet colorations are much easier to tame in small speakers, so if those already flunked the test...But I'll keep an open mind.

Devore orangutans are not meant for digital and bad recordings people. And have to be matched carefully to amps which the three of you wouldn’t know about

 

[Young Skywalker]

Devore orangutans are not meant for digital and bad recordings people. And have to be matched carefully to amps which the three of you wouldn’t know about

A coloured speaker that requires a coloured amplifier as the antidote? As I said, from the “as you like it” school of sound reproduction. Nothing wrong with that in what is a purely subjective preoccupation, but never to be confused with high fidelity reproduction.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Bonzo if the devores / AN UK measured the same in the room you heard them then you can scrap the " zero distortion" title of your blog .
" Devore fidelity "

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo if the devores / AN UK measured the same in the room you heard them then you can scrap the " zero distortion" title of your blog .
" Devore fidelity "

View attachment 127667

You can easily get good measurement by putting disparate drivers together and putting in a digital crossover to align them. I am sure you personally wouldn’t hear the difference.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo if the devores / AN UK measured the same in the room you heard them then you can scrap the " zero distortion" title of your blog .
" Devore fidelity "

View attachment 127667

also, in future try to be more honest with your postings by letting people read JA’s full thoughts, as well as Art Dudley’s if you are extracting something convenient to make your argument

DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield and spatially averaged room responses.

www.stereophile.com

 

[Kozak170]

I don't think anyone expects a $30K Uno to sound as good as an $60K DuoGT. Nor do I think anyone would think that the $80K DuoGT would sound as good as a $250K Trio w/ Spacehorns.

But in order to achieve the performance of Trios, you don't need to spend $250K to get better than Duos, There is another option that I would call it "Trio Lite", which consists of trios and two REL subwoofers instead of Spacehorns, and it puts you at the border of $100K ($91k+$9k), and as Trio owners like @marslo experienced, this combination is completely superior to the Mezzo and it's only about $20K more expensive than the Mezzo G3 and you can add Spacehorns in the future and then use those REL subs to cover below 30Hz, which you did with the WB subs.
However, personally, if I don't want to spend more than $80K, I will most likely choose the Mezzo G3, but I don't think it is easy to ignore that upper-bass horn in the trio, which is the main key to the superiority of the Trios over the Duos.

 

[Kozak170]

There no benefit to anyone in saying once again that you hate any Avantgarde that isn't a Trio.

Kedar's lack of interest in Duos reminds me of Romy, who knows and cares about AG brand only for its trios in his forum and doesn't like duos and other 2-way horns at all, but interestingly, Romy's first speakers before his trios were Duos, Also, he very much hates single-drive back loaded horns like Pnoe even more than Duos.

 

[bonzo75]

Kedar's lack of interest in Duos reminds me of Romy, who knows and cares about AG brand only for its trios in his forum and doesn't like duos and other 2-way horns at all, but interestingly, Romy's first speakers before his trios were Duos, Also, he very much hates single-drive back loaded horns like Pnoe even more than Duos.

i like single driver, two ways, three ways and four (speaking of horns) The more you listen the more exceptions or specific examples you can find.

 

[Kozak170]

i like single driver, two ways, three ways and four (speaking of horns) The more you listen the more exceptions or specific examples you can find.

I know, I meant Romy who hates single-drive back loaded horns.

 

[bonzo75]

I know, I meant Romy who hates single-drive back loaded horns.

Romy hates everything

 

[Al M.]

Devore orangutans are not meant for digital and bad recordings people. And have to be matched carefully to amps which the three of you wouldn’t know about

A hilarious post for the ages.

Unfortunately it's not quite a joke since I know that you are at least half-serious about it.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Can we please drop the Rock'em Sock'em Robots about box speakers and Devores, and return to Todd's system and Avantgardes?

Thank you.

 

[Kingrex]

Yes Ron. I did find it odd people are offeneded when Bonzo speaks plain about the Duo then lash with the same unfiltered language at Devore.

 

[Hear Here]

I am certainly not upset that Ked states his opinions. It is a free forum (as long as there is no personal attacks). He is merely trying to communicate to others that he has heard better sound from the O96 (and others) than the DuoGT. As Mike L. would say that is a data point for people to put in their head and think about.

The trouble, in general, is that a speaker can be made to sound pretty bad or just ok or really great depending on the seup and how much attention to detail the person setting up the system paid to getting music to happen. Let me explain what I have learned about the DuoGT to this point. I am still learning but here goes.

Just like the Trio the tweeter in the DuoGT is set into a sphereical horn. That means that the speaker needs to be pointed pretty much right at the listener. Poor toe-in choice is one reason a lot of the setups can sound bright. People tend to think toeing in the speaker is going to make it bright but that is backwards.

The Duo GT has two 12" woofers and is ported through the bottom. This means that it is extremely responsive to height. Getting the speaker to come up some will vastly clean up bass articulation. It is enough height that one really needs longer spikes. I use shims.

Speaking of height and tweeter -- The tweeter in the DuoGT is just 36" off the floor. A typical listening height is going to be between 38" (on the low side) ot 41". Sitting in those dining charis at a show my ear height is 45". For the same reasons stated above on toe-in the tweeter really needs to be pointed in the vicinity of the same height as the ear. Raising the speaker to help bass articulation helps this also. But then the speaker is going to need some rake.

Then there is the crossover point between the woofer bin and the horn. I am still playing with this some but the default is 170Hz with a 24 dB/Oct Butterworth Filter. Surprisingly, I am exploring the 12 dB/Octave filter with some nice benefits. TBD if I will leave it like this.

Do you see my point? Details apply to ANY speaker. Not the specifics I stated above but the specifics for how THAT specific speaker is designed and responds. It is very easy to set this (or any) speaker up by just pointing them straight ahead, relatively flat on the spikes and maybe even shoved up against a wall. In this case one would be listening to the room as sound is simply sprayed around everywhere. To me, going into a room like this is like a "noise box". I think some like this type of sound as it is very uniform around the room. I consider this uniformly bad sound. But to each their own.

Thanks for that explanation - it corresponds very much with my experience with Duo XD speakers.

My tweeters are 35" above the floor and my ears height is about 38", but I have no concerns about this as it's best to keep the mid horn not far from ear level, so my 38" works well. Therefore I avoid the need for tilting. I changed spikes for IsoAcoustic Gaia I feet and this significantly improved detail and clarity within the bass range.

Yes, toe-in should be directly towards the listening position, plus or minus a few degrees and this precise angle is important to experiment with. However at Shows, this precise setting up goes out of the window because the intention is to offer "good" listening to dozens of listening positions, whereas in the home, one is looking for "exceptional" listening at a single position. At Shows it is better to reduce toe in to achieve this and to improve visitors' initial reaction to their looks.

Whatever Ked may say about the Unos and Duos, it's nonsense and should be ignored by potential purchasers (and current owners) of these great speakers. They are consistently reviewed favourably with the possible exception the HFN review of the understandably poorly-received Primo. In fact it was the 2000 Stereophile review of the Uno that convinced me they'd offer a massive increase in listener pleasure compared with my earlier ATC 50 Actives. Stereophile went on to choose the Uno as their Speaker of the Year - and rightly so at its price point. I've since moved to Duos circa 2006 and more recently Duo XDs, but sadly AG representation in the UK is dreadful at present so I've had no opportunity to hear the new GT model yet.

 

[Carlos269]

Todd, can you post a video of your system playing this song, which a fellow WBF member with a great SET/horns based system posted:

Please share a full length video of your system that showcases the level of refinement that you have been able to achieve with your components and meticulous set up procedure.

I listened to the brief clips in Ron’s interview video but I wasn’t able to appreciate the achievement that you and others speak of. I’m looking for an inspiration for future developments and judging from reports by others and the tone of your responses on your last few postings, it appears that you have achieved something special and I would like to hear it, even if it is just over videos. Videos do convey the quality of the system as demonstrated by the video posted above.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Devore orangutans are not meant for digital and bad recordings people. And have to be matched carefully to amps which the three of you wouldn’t know about

Its very colored with bad timbre , it will sound good to you as the coloration it has add body to string instruments , your high class imagination and memory recall takes over and Bam you are off to the races ..

 

[Hear Here]

as best as I can recall, they tried different toe in angles....but mostly toed in. the sound was quite different how far back you were. more than any speaker system I recall being. even one seat either way side to side was quite different. my guess was that there was multiple factors going on beyond the scope of the room set up skills on hand.

That is one of the features of direction horns such as Avantgarde and the reason they have a small sweet spot and need very careful setting up. This can't be ideally achieved at Shows for the reasons I've already suggested, so the exhibitor has to compromise by setting up in such a way that all seats get "good" sound but none gets the "exceptional" sound that we would expect at home.

 

[Hear Here]

Todd, can you post a video of your system playing this song, which a fellow WBF member with a great SET/horns based system posted:


Please share a full length video of your system that showcases the level of refinement that you have been able to achieve with your components and meticulous set up procedure.

Surely a waste of effort if we have to listen to a Youtube video, recorded by a less-than-perfect microphone and we access it via our grotty PCs? Even if we have speakers better than Trios to play this video on, we are unlikely to appreciate how good (or bad) the Trios are.

 

[Carlos269]

Surely a waste of effort if we have to listen to a Youtube video, recorded by a less-than-perfect microphone and we access it via our grotty PCs? Even if we have speakers better than Trios to play this video on, we are unlikely to appreciate how good (or bad) the Trios are.

I don’t think that it’s a waste of time at all. Not only do I have a number great sounding systems and their quality is readily discernible over videos. Furthermore I posted another member’s video as an example that video convey the general qualities of the system. Surely a great sounding system will sound accordingly over videos. If you don’t believe this, then how do you explain the many great sounding system videos?

 

[Argonaut]

And just when you thought the Doctor Butlers had been efficacious