Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[LL21]

Hi bonzo,

Sonically, should we think of the Full Range as sounding the same as the Grand minus below 40 Hz support from the 12" cones? (If you turned off the cones on the Grand would the Full Range sound the same as the Grand?)

Great question. I suspect yes.

 

[Ron Resnick]

If Apogee were in business today making new Grands -- well, improved Grands which did not have crazy complicated op-amp crossovers and which did not use Krell solid-state to drive the tweeter ribbons -- they would be extremely tempting!

 

[bonzo75]

Hi bonzo,

Sonically, should we think of the Full Range as sounding the same as the Grand minus below 40 Hz support from the 12" cones? (If you turned off the cones on the Grand would the FR sound the same as the Grand?)

Should provide similar mids and bass power except woofer. Could be differences in amp control as Krell not in play

 

[bonzo75]

If Apogee were in business today making new Grands -- well, improved Grands which did not have crazy complicated op-amp crossovers and which did not use Krell solid-state to drive the tweeter ribbons -- they would be extremely tempting!

Not sure why that would make a difference. You are then talking about a different speaker, like the analysis, which is much easier to drive, and can be easily driven by big SETs like NATs and the wavac, and while a nice speaker (I prefer omega to the duettas I have heard so far), no match for FR/grands

 

[Ron Resnick]

Do you mean what difference does it makes that the Grand is rebuilt rather than new?

Or do you mean what difference does it make if the cross-over were simpler and the tweeter could be powered externally?

 

[bonzo75]

Do you mean what difference does it makes that the Grand is rebuilt rather than new?

Or do you mean what difference does it make if the cross-over were simpler and the tweeter could be powered externally?

I meant it's a theoretical exercise to some extent but then there is no Krell in Apogee FR.

The way to make the current speaker better is to change crossovers from the Mundorf that Henk supplies them with and upgrade to say mundorf supreme or Duelund, or go completely active and add multiple amps where you are restricted only by, ie. You could bi amp ch precision, Gryphon, balabo, or whatever. Or tri amp.

 

[Zero000]

Should provide similar mids and bass power except woofer. Could be differences in amp control as Krell not in play

My preference is for no cones with bass ribbons at all. They just don't blend and are not necessary, especially with Full Range. They sound sluggish, leaden, and they push bass through wall boundaries in a manner that is quite framkly annoying.

Do you really need below 20Hz? Even a Duetta bass panel, like mine, in a frame strengthen set up, hits 21Hz +/- 0DB. And it produces much more dynamic bass than the Omega, which is more classical music oriented IMHO, though still a great speaker.

 

[bonzo75]

Henk used subs with his FR crossed over at 60 and said it made the mid bass sound cleaner. But yes not all external subs can sound right and it is an additional project to cross it over properly especially if one is not using a crossover box

 

[Zero000]

I can believe that easily. But the trade off, I bet, it that the basic nature of the dynamic drivers is different, and no matter how much you try, it will never match the planar magnetic unit in terms of basic sonic character.

Better to trade a bit of clarity than blend with dynamic drivers IMHO. Or build frames so freakin' rigid that the LF really can't interfere too much.

People have been trying to blend dynamic drivers with panels for decades. Choose your school of thought and personal preferences. The important thing is to educate yourself WRT where your preferences lie, and what compromises you are prepared to accept.

I gave up trying to get a sub to work with Duettas. They go too low to make using an ML Descent worthwhile, and there is so much grunge below 20Hz with vinyl it is a joke trying to replicate it. It is swamped with minor record warp information i.e. vinyl ripples. It ain't flat, vinyl, and any decent deck picks it all up. A subsonic filter is a must with it when running subs.

Subs are for the digital world below 20Hz, and even then you find some really weird stuff going on down low in a lot of recordings.

 

[Zero000]

Just listened to Drum Duet - it is a bit freakin' extreme. Plenty of attack, though, no question. Very little low bass modulated at a level to make it prominent. The Jim Keltner recording smashes it for sounding very close to a real drum kit in the room. I've heard it all over the place on many different systems. It does really well on Wilson's too.

 

[bonzo75]

Just listened to Drum Duet - it is a bit freakin' extreme. Plenty of attack, though, no question. Very little low bass modulated at a level to make it prominent. The Jim Keltner recording smashes it for sounding very close to a real drum kit in the room. I've heard it all over the place on many different systems. It does really well on Wilson's too.

Where the drum duet does well, and I think the one that you played me, is that you get the drums along the panel. It is as if someone is aggressively pounding on the door, across the wall, pounding all along the wall. With cones it gets isolated.

 

[fas42]

A disk I use to unearth lots of information is Peter Gabriel IV (Security) - the intensity of the drumming passages is a real marker, this should be an amazing sensation to experience - if it doesn't deliver, then there are issues ...

 

[henk]

Stax DMA-X2

And so what? They're now magically transformed by changing out a few parts?

david

David,

I was referred here by Bonzo, and I couldn't let this one slide....

The Staxes and Grands were both refurbished by Marcel Croese, (www.creatoaudio.com) who has over six years experience designing amps with Goldmund, and is also responsible for the original Prima-Luna amps.

I can honestly say that neither Grand nor Staxes sound anything like what I had before he touched them.

And yes, the difference is huge, unbelieveable.

We're still working on fine-tuning things

Interesting side-note: Marcel won't touch the Pliniusses. He doesn't like them one bit.
I'll just have to save up and buy something worthwile to replace them.

Anybody have a pair of Staxes for sale?????

Henk

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for posting here, Henk.

The fantastic reputation of your restored and re-built Apogees precedes you!

 

[ddk]

David,

I was referred here by Bonzo, and I couldn't let this one slide....

The Staxes and Grands were both refurbished by Marcel Croese, (www.creatoaudio.com) who has over six years experience designing amps with Goldmund, and is also responsible for the original Prima-Luna amps.

I can honestly say that neither Grand nor Staxes sound anything like what I had before he touched them.

And yes, the difference is huge, unbelieveable.

We're still working on fine-tuning things

Interesting side-note: Marcel won't touch the Pliniusses. He doesn't like them one bit.
I'll just have to save up and buy something worthwile to replace them.

Anybody have a pair of Staxes for sale?????

Henk

Thank you for the update Henk, I already like Mr. Croese with that comment! Good luck with the Grand, I had a 3 year battle with that beast and got nowhere. From the Apogees I owned the Divas were my favorite, they were the most balanced of the lot For me. Had all the best Apogee attributes but not too much of any one thing like some of the other models where the sound was sometimes tilted towards a particular frequency.

david

 

[RBFC]

Welcome, Henk! As a long-time Apogee fan (and former owner), I sincerely appreciate your efforts to revive these great speakers. Please tell us more about your thought process as it relates to their restoration and improvement.

Lee

 

[henk]

Hi bonzo,

Sonically, should we think of the Full Range as sounding the same as the Grand minus below 40 Hz support from the 12" cones? (If you turned off the cones on the Grand would the FR sound the same as the Grand?)

Hi Ron,

Certainly not! The Grands bass ribbon was never meant to play the low bass, and is tuned accordingly. So if you want the bass to sound the same as the FR, you'd need to retune the Grand's bass ribbon.

But as the FR's bass ribbon is almost 25% larger, I doubt you would get the same result.

I also believe it wouldn't be very wise. I've used the FR for about 5 years in conjunction with a Velodyne DD18. Apart from the question about whether you like cone bass or not: crossing over the FR at about 50 Hz relieves the bass ribbons from the large excursions needed to reproduce these low frequencies. And this has a profound and positive influence on the quality of the mid-bass.

Now I do believe I know where this shortcoming comes from, it's inherent in the design of the apogees. To get rid of this some-one would need to design a large full range ribbon driver that doesn't have this shortcoming......

 

[LL21]

Hi Ron,

Certainly not! The Grands bass ribbon was never meant to play the low bass, and is tuned accordingly. So if you want the bass to sound the same as the FR, you'd need to retune the Grand's bass ribbon.

But as the FR's bass ribbon is almost 25% larger, I doubt you would get the same result.

I also believe it wouldn't be very wise. I've used the FR for about 5 years in conjunction with a Velodyne DD18. Apart from the question about whether you like cone bass or not: crossing over the FR at about 50 Hz relieves the bass ribbons from the large excursions needed to reproduce these low frequencies. And this has a profound and positive influence on the quality of the mid-bass.

Now I do believe I know where this shortcoming comes from, it's inherent in the design of the apogees. To get rid of this some-one would need to design a large full range ribbon driver that doesn't have this shortcoming......

Fascinating! Would love to know more about your setup here. As a user of Velodynes for years and now the DD18+ with the Wilson X1/Grand Slamm, i have often thought about the Full Ranges (had i not gone with the Wilsons)...i think Apogees must be one of my favorite all-time speaker manufacturers of old.

Do you use the Velodyne's crossover, or do you use a third party crossover and then split the feed to the FRs and to your Velodyne?

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Henk, that might be technically, but if you were enjoying the FR in your room, would it have a similar mid and bass enjoyment as a grand without a woofer?

 

[ddk]

I also believe it wouldn't be very wise. I've used the FR for about 5 years in conjunction with a Velodyne DD18. Apart from the question about whether you like cone bass or not: crossing over the FR at about 50 Hz relieves the bass ribbons from the large excursions needed to reproduce these low frequencies.

So if you're not running the FR full range are you using an electronic crossover to cut off the lower frequency or just an inline resistor? The achilles heel of the Apogee was their hunger for power and current, at the time and maybe even probably today there were very few high powered amplifiers capable of delivering the goods that also sounded good, so I need to ask what do you use on your bass panels that a cheap integrated class D amp in an HT subwoofer sounds better than the FR's wonderful bass panels driven full range? Pilinius?

david