Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

I sometimes take FR plots at 85DB continuous using pink noise. It is intolerable you have to put finger's over your ears immediately.

http://dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/decibel-exposure-time-guidelines/

I don't doubt you felt they wouldn't play loud enough with low power amps, though.

Pink noise is different from music, short exposure to it even in the low 80's db is intolerable after a few minutes. I don't listen in the high 90's db all the time but when I want it the system should deliver realistic sound levels naturally and with ease, otherwise I don't see the point for a big system and specially a big speaker which the Divas & Grand were. In the end of the day live level sound pressure is part of it too.

Edit- Natural Bass is the foundation of a high end systems, very few amps can get the Diva's or FR's bass going properly to begin with and maybe a couple of those can actually reproduce a realistic, quality nuanced bass that high end lower powered Class A amps are capable of.

david
 
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The thing about pink noise is that it is pretty much all frequencies continuously. It just sounds dreadful. And you did say 95 DB continuously which real music generally doesn't do i.e. stay at one volume continuously. Some compressed to death stuff might get close however...:)
 
It came down to a choice Ron, in the end I went as far as I could go with the Apogees and it didn't quite get me there. Over a decade with them was long enough to know!

Edit- If you spend some time with a quality SET and the right speakers you'll know why.

david

The right speaker with a SET, or with a SS, does not readily exist and has to be restored/rebuilt. All the commercially made ones lack something or the other.
 
The thing about pink noise is that it is pretty much all frequencies continuously. It just sounds dreadful. And you did say 95 DB continuously which real music generally doesn't do i.e. stay at one volume continuously. Some compressed to death stuff might get close however...:)

One is noise and the other is music, not the same thing. Next time you're in a Jazz club sit up close to the stage and measure the sound levels, some of those New Orleans bands play very loud for very long, try recreating that with an Apogee or even a piano and a cello at live volumes and scale it's very difficult with Apogees.

david
 
Nothing can reproduce live but apogees are easily the closest. Loved the cello at Lissnr's
 
The right speaker with a SET, or with a SS, does not readily exist and has to be restored/rebuilt. All the commercially made ones lack something or the other.

Yes, there are very very few SET friendly full range speakers made today, the few I know are all in the 6 figures and mostly need to be bi-amped. More choices if you go with solid state but again you're talking a lot of money for anything approaching the sound quality of the Divas & FR..., a decent two way is around $30k these days...:(.

david
 
Nothing can reproduce live but apogees are easily the closest. Loved the cello at Lissnr's

We are getting deep in hyperbole here but... hey! It's an Apogee thread after all ;)
 
We are getting deep in hyperbole here but... hey! It's an Apogee thread after all ;)

LOL Frantz! Bonzo needs to actually live with a pair of Apogees for a while then he'll know what it takes to make them come to life, the pretty soft sound get's boring very fast specially with the big orchestral pieces he likes to listen to.

david
 
(For me) that pretty, soft sound is perfect for vocals with acoustic accompaniment. :)

PS: But, really, for me, I like the ribbon driver -- whether it is Apogee or Genesis or Gryphon Pendragon. I think my speaker journey has allowed me to appreciate the slightly weightier and slightly more full-bodied reproduction of sound by ribbon drivers than by electrostatic panels.
 
(For me) that pretty, soft sound is perfect for vocals with acoustic accompaniment. :)

Apogee sound is not soft. There is a lot of percussive energy due to the amp power that leads to the added density which stats lack. Soft (lack of power) where soft has a negative connotation, will not add the realism
 
(...) I don't listen in the high 90's db all the time but (...)
(...) And you did say 95 DB continuously (...)

This dB affair of acoustic music loudness is always a very nebulous affair. Are you referring to peak, average, weighted, non weighted or just the most suspicious existing loudness unit, the dBi (dB iphone)?
 
This dB affair of acoustic music loudness is always a very nebulous affair. Are you referring to peak, average, weighted, non weighted or just the most suspicious existing loudness unit, the dBi (dB iphone)?

Agreed. The video I shot earlier giving 93 DB peaks on a Duetta for 75 Watts is actually C-weighted.
 
One is noise and the other is music, not the same thing. Next time you're in a Jazz club sit up close to the stage and measure the sound levels, some of those New Orleans bands play very loud for very long, try recreating that with an Apogee or even a piano and a cello at live volumes and scale it's very difficult with Apogees.

david

The only reason to need very high volume capability at home is for when you are trying to flood other rooms with sound, or to impress your mates with. In my opinion.

I've been to gigs that have been incredibly loud. Way over what an Apogee can do or indeed most commercial hi-fi speakers can.

I was impressed with the last of the lead lined Wilsons and a 600 Watt amp. That played louder than I thought it would, I have to say. System 6 or 7, can't remember now.
 
LOL Frantz! Bonzo needs to actually live with a pair of Apogees for a while then he'll know what it takes to make them come to life, the pretty soft sound get's boring very fast specially with the big orchestral pieces he likes to listen to.

david

Infinitely wise.

Apogees will play hard, soft or middle ground depending on amps, source, but most importantly source material. They are quite capable of sounding so harsh you want to rip your ears out. But that is the way it should be with any decent speaker that reflects its input with any degree of accuracy.
 
Exactly. I have never heard pretty soft sound on the good apogees I heard.
 
Not my experience. Within the constraints of speaker power compression ( In itself a serious and poorly understood issue) and of amplifier quality , I would just say it ain't so. Perhaps we should open a thread on this.

Speaker power compression IS another important topic and one that is overlooked by the 85db/watt speaker crowd. The truth there is that compression sets in far earlier than people would expect and this has the effect of blunting live dynamic swings. It also means the speaker can quickly become a bottomless pit for power as doubling of power no longer gives 3db increase in volume. There was a demo on video (maybe youtube but I don't remember now) of Harbeth speakers and CH Precision amps. The amps were showing some ridiculously high power values (over 600 watts if I remember correctly) and the guys were still able to stand and listen and even talk during the playback! Now, those speakers are somewhat low sensitivity but with that much power going in them it should have been quite impossible to get close to them or talk. This tells me that this speaker was simply not getting louder anymore regardless of the power you put in and that it would likely blunt realistic dynamics at anything above background listening levels. Sadly, the majority of conventional box speakers are nearly like the Harbeth and will never achieve life-like dynamic contrasts unless the average level is around 70db but then you are usually losing out the realistic contrasts...at the low volume end of the spectrum because insensitive speakers drop that out as well. A typical 85-88db box speaker is ideal for average levels in the upper mid 80s db wise with a small dynamic range...in other words they are ideal for compressed pop/rock music. Once a box speaker gets above 90db/watt they start to get kind of interesting for less compressed music as long as they have their driver/cabinet colorations under control. Once they get above 94-95db they start to get interesting for wide dynamic range music at something approaching realistic levels, assuming that they have the whole frequency range under control (many horns do not).

If you put high powered SS amps on a high sensitivity speaker of high quality it will not sound more dynamic or alive than a good SET or push/pull triode amp. It will also not sound more powerful but you will probably end up having to turn it up louder for it to sound less flat and boring.

I have found though that electrostatic speakers and to a lesser extent ribbons are somewhat different in how they relate to power. They don't seem to suffer from power compression, perhaps because they have such huge surface areas acting effectively as voice coils and as a result don't heat up really. Also, as a line source, they have much less drop off with distance in a room so the in-room sensitivity is higher than what one might expect. What this means for electrostats is that they go down down down in level very nicely without dropping out the music and when the average level is set at something reasonable BECAUSE you can hear down in level so low this means that you can achieve a realistic scaling of the signal up until the excursion limits (with the bass usually) kick in. This means you can do quite realistic reproduction of classical chamber music and small acoustic jazz ensembles at realistic levels (as long as there is not too much bass) and can get realistic scaling of big orchestral works...just not at live levels...perhaps 6-10db below live. Ribbons are a bit more limited on the low volume end, needing a bit more juice to come alive but they might be a bit more capable at the high volume end, although the bass panels will bottom out in about the same way as a big electrostatic panel will. I have found that there needs to be a few db higher average listening level with ribbons for high dynamic range music, which means it might not track the big orchestral dynamic envelope as physical compression due to excursion limits sets in.

My friends and I have heard this as well even on speakers like electrostats and ribbons where we have been quite successful running them with push/pull triode and SETS. I was running Acoustats for years on KR Audio SETs and it was very live sounding...much more so than my friend who had a pair with a large ASR Emitter II Exclusive or Musical Fidelity KW750 (not many amps with more clean power than that one) or a number of Krells, the Lamm M1.1s, Sphinx Project 14s, SimAudio Moon W5 etc. Shouldn't work well according to the power firsters but it did and so well that some of those friends followed suit. Now, I have horns (Odeon "La Boheme") driven by SET but I have tried push/pull tubes and transistor output hybrids on them...SET rules for dynamic expression. Apogees can work fantastically with SET and PP triode amps. Much more life there.

Basically, all my local friends have dumped their high powered SS amps for SET or PP triode. They had amps from the likes of McIntosh (MC 501), Karan (big 200 watt integrated), Krell (various), Sphinx (Project 14), Lamm, Musical Fidelity, Sim Audio, ASR etc. They all believed the power hype...not anymore. All are much happier with the sound they get from tubes (SET in particular). Speakers include, Odeons (three different models), Apogees (Grands, STudio Grands, Centaur Major), Acoustat (1+1, Spectra 2200, 4400), Thiel CS3.7, Stax ELS F-81, Cabasse Baltic Evolution (above 80Hz), Reference 3a (3 models). Note, the only low sensitivity speakers here are ribbons and Stats. The Thiels are 91 db and work great with SET and PP triode (VAC 30/30 for example) the Cabasse are about 89 db but an easy load. Ref 3as are around 92db and easy loads and Odeons range from 93db (Rigolettos) and No. 32s (95db) to 98db (La Bohemes).

So, one has to ask oneself, what is the big difference here in power amp design?? Turns out that what you usually have to do to get ultra high power with ultra low THD is a sound and dynamics killer.
 
Speaker power compression IS another important topic and one that is overlooked by the 85db/watt speaker crowd. The truth there is that compression sets in far earlier than people would expect and this has the effect of blunting live dynamic swings. It also means the speaker can quickly become a bottomless pit for power as doubling of power no longer gives 3db increase in volume. There was a demo on video (maybe youtube but I don't remember now) of Harbeth speakers and CH Precision amps. The amps were showing some ridiculously high power values (over 600 watts if I remember correctly) and the guys were still able to stand and listen and even talk during the playback! Now, those speakers are somewhat low sensitivity but with that much power going in them it should have been quite impossible to get close to them or talk. This tells me that this speaker was simply not getting louder anymore regardless of the power you put in and that it would likely blunt realistic dynamics at anything above background listening levels. Sadly, the majority of conventional box speakers are nearly like the Harbeth and will never achieve life-like dynamic contrasts unless the average level is around 70db but then you are usually losing out the realistic contrasts...at the low volume end of the spectrum because insensitive speakers drop that out as well. A typical 85-88db box speaker is ideal for average levels in the upper mid 80s db wise with a small dynamic range...in other words they are ideal for compressed pop/rock music. Once a box speaker gets above 90db/watt they start to get kind of interesting for less compressed music as long as they have their driver/cabinet colorations under control. Once they get above 94-95db they start to get interesting for wide dynamic range music at something approaching realistic levels, assuming that they have the whole frequency range under control (many horns do not).

If you put high powered SS amps on a high sensitivity speaker of high quality it will not sound more dynamic or alive than a good SET or push/pull triode amp. It will also not sound more powerful but you will probably end up having to turn it up louder for it to sound less flat and boring.

I have found though that electrostatic speakers and to a lesser extent ribbons are somewhat different in how they relate to power. They don't seem to suffer from power compression, perhaps because they have such huge surface areas acting effectively as voice coils and as a result don't heat up really. Also, as a line source, they have much less drop off with distance in a room so the in-room sensitivity is higher than what one might expect. What this means for electrostats is that they go down down down in level very nicely without dropping out the music and when the average level is set at something reasonable BECAUSE you can hear down in level so low this means that you can achieve a realistic scaling of the signal up until the excursion limits (with the bass usually) kick in. This means you can do quite realistic reproduction of classical chamber music and small acoustic jazz ensembles at realistic levels (as long as there is not too much bass) and can get realistic scaling of big orchestral works...just not at live levels...perhaps 6-10db below live. Ribbons are a bit more limited on the low volume end, needing a bit more juice to come alive but they might be a bit more capable at the high volume end, although the bass panels will bottom out in about the same way as a big electrostatic panel will. I have found that there needs to be a few db higher average listening level with ribbons for high dynamic range music, which means it might not track the big orchestral dynamic envelope as physical compression due to excursion limits sets in.

My friends and I have heard this as well even on speakers like electrostats and ribbons where we have been quite successful running them with push/pull triode and SETS. I was running Acoustats for years on KR Audio SETs and it was very live sounding...much more so than my friend who had a pair with a large ASR Emitter II Exclusive or Musical Fidelity KW750 (not many amps with more clean power than that one) or a number of Krells, the Lamm M1.1s, Sphinx Project 14s, SimAudio Moon W5 etc. Shouldn't work well according to the power firsters but it did and so well that some of those friends followed suit. Now, I have horns (Odeon "La Boheme") driven by SET but I have tried push/pull tubes and transistor output hybrids on them...SET rules for dynamic expression. Apogees can work fantastically with SET and PP triode amps. Much more life there.

Basically, all my local friends have dumped their high powered SS amps for SET or PP triode. They had amps from the likes of McIntosh (MC 501), Karan (big 200 watt integrated), Krell (various), Sphinx (Project 14), Lamm, Musical Fidelity, Sim Audio, ASR etc. They all believed the power hype...not anymore. All are much happier with the sound they get from tubes (SET in particular). Speakers include, Odeons (three different models), Apogees (Grands, STudio Grands, Centaur Major), Acoustat (1+1, Spectra 2200, 4400), Thiel CS3.7, Stax ELS F-81, Cabasse Baltic Evolution (above 80Hz), Reference 3a (3 models). Note, the only low sensitivity speakers here are ribbons and Stats. The Thiels are 91 db and work great with SET and PP triode (VAC 30/30 for example) the Cabasse are about 89 db but an easy load. Ref 3as are around 92db and easy loads and Odeons range from 93db (Rigolettos) and No. 32s (95db) to 98db (La Bohemes).

So, one has to ask oneself, what is the big difference here in power amp design?? Turns out that what you usually have to do to get ultra high power with ultra low THD is a sound and dynamics killer.


One last note, I have found so far that horns still do not do "quiet" as well as good electrostats...the Stax ELS F-81s might be the all-time champs at this because they really cannot play very loud but you can hear clearly with them right down into the noise floor of your room and not really hear them drop out. Perhaps the ultimate late night, don't wake the kids speakers for those who hate headphones.
 
I partially disagree, the KR sounded very nice on the studio grands on bloom and tone, but they did not (obviously) Hager the power and the control for large scale orchestral or choral. Christoph himself does not listen loudly nor does he listen to much orchestral. And yes, he probably remembers my face telling him how much I liked the KR, but I would definitely need more power to live with. For NAT and grands, one needs a bigger room to test. They might work properly, but wouldn't know. Yes, given a choice, I would take a KR or NAT but if they don't work there are many great powerful options.

Off to sleep now
 
Higher-fi has a pair of Grands on the Gon now for $68,000. Unrestored but condition "looks" very good.
 

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