Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[thekong]

Interesting. The grille material Jon Oakey uses - I just cannot hear any difference with the covers on or off. Absolutely none. And this is from a person who always removed grilles from speakers he has used in the past.

TBH I think Jon said it is the same as Apogee used. Can you say the same of your grilles? If so, I am amazed you can hear a difference.

Does it look like this?

The other reason I thought you may not be using the front panels is that pure foil tweeter excursion. It is immense!

View attachment 28182

Something similar, but I seem to remember the one on mine was a bit more dense !

The ribbon's excursion was large, but not quite enough to hit the grill

 

[thekong]

.... It was easy to hear the actual characteristics of the individual amp types evident through whatever driver they were connected to! We settled on a full compliment of 17w amps as the best solution on the day, memorable...

I agree, Apogees, especially those without the passive Xover, are very revealing on amp characters! For active bi- or tri-amp, I always try to use the same amp, or at least amps from the same series.

 

[cjfrbw]

Michael's Duetta was the first using a foil ribbon closely related to the Definitive. It has an unusual interface to make it very linear and amp friendly, and some unique characteristics...

Take care - Graz

btw - Carl - that is you! Still some early forum people out there

Yes, Graz, it's me, Carl. I still use the Stages that you sent me the replacement ribbons for years ago. They are in the Santa Cruz second home being driven by, guess what, a Wavac 50w 572b SET amp on the bass ribbon and a very old Luxman 68 push pull tube amp on the midrange ribbons, augmented with a 45 tubed amp on foiled tweeters, using an Accuphase three way active crossover, kind of mini-me version of my main system in Pleasanton that uses the Analysis Epsilon speakers.

I thought WBF would never get around to properly honoring Apogees, but here you all are!

 

[Zero000]

OK I have shot the power meter video to try and calm Marc down LOL.

The speakers are 1.6m apart, so two for Divas should be totally fine. As you will see, I have them totally up against the sidewalls. I have found if the side walls don't have any obstructions between you and the listener, this is absolutely fine i.e. imaging is still pretty much as good as an Apogee can muster. It's 90-95% of what they can do with more side space IMHO.

Just been playing the video on my small monitors in the lounge. It does sound a bit rough in a way that being in the room just doesn't. I will say that in the room, that track sounds absolutely freakin' amazing to these ears.

And the guitars? Yes, I do play them...

I have the sound meter set to peak for the most part. Subjectively, it is pretty loud in there - my ears are whistling a little after that as I shot a 400 Watt+ video too. Might post it later.

The first minute or so is me messing around setting stuff up. The camera is right next to my mouth so the breathing sounds a prominent. Sorry about that.

Video will be along in a bit...

 

[Zero000]

Now from that video, you should be able to deduce that an 80 Watt tube amp that can hack 4 Ohms will probably play plenty loud enough for everyday use.

I'm getting peak readings for the most part in the video. It is a bit unscientific, who knows how the DB reader was calibrated, and how great the Accuphase power meters are, but it is obviously quite a bit better than an iPhone reading.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Very interesting, and a fun room tour! This should assuage SpiritofMusic's concerns about tube power levels on Duettas.

Thank you for posting this!

 

[Zero000]

No problem Ron You did ask...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin and Ron,
Thanx for the twin therapy advice on this LOL
I'm a lot more comfortable with the idea of tubes on Apogees
Justin would probably agree the bulletproof NATs (with overegineered twin transformers per chassis) likely better match than even his 211s
Interestingly the 120W Transmitters that I'd use (or outside possibility 170W Magmas) are SETetrodes, and KeithR contends they favour grip and bass over more typical SETriode attributes of tone, delicacy etc
So a move to NAT Tetrodes and Divas would be even more of a paradigm shift

My plan is threefold
One, just get the system running in the new room and enjoy my music (after a nine month gap NO LOL!). Just see how the Zus settle in a less challenging acoustic than my previous place
Two, investigate Anslysis Omegas with NAT Transmitters. See if I like the tetrode signature and synergy with these ribbons
Three, investigate demos of Duettas and Divas, in the UK and NL

I will have plenty of reference points, and budget saved, come final decision time...

 

[Zero000]

Justin would probably agree the bulletproof NATs (with overegineered twin transformers per chassis) likely better match than even his 211s

Hm I dunno mine weigh more than Transmitters... more transformer in terms of mass in mine I think. Marginal though, Transmitter - 40KG, mine 42KG. My chassis is thin, though, unlike the NATs which are better finished by a mile, and whose chassis only will weigh more. So diff in transformer mass will be more. Look inside the AAs though and there are some very nice looking caps and bits in general. Money spent where it matters.

 

[bonzo75]

The analysis probably easier to drive and with NAT great on mids but I think a no go for Marc because they won't do non-classical well on that combo. Apogees will also do the electronic and rock bit

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, not my intention to belittle your 211s
All I know is that in comparison to my 60W NAT SE2SEs, my previous Audion Black Shadows were pretty vague on bass and grip (not a result of their pretty useful 25W/ch, more their tbh weedy 10kg transformers)
My NATsare the grippiest, fullest bass SET amps I've ever heard (and I've auditioned a few), and I can only imagine what more of this in the NAT tetrodes could positively sound like
Despite KeithR's guess that the tetrodes may swap my current triode magic for sledgehammer control (good for the Apogees), I believe Peter auditioned the Transmitters on his Vandersteens when I visited him to demo the Straingauge cart, and there was grip aplenty but from what I can recall, no lack of natural warmth or texture
Now I think about it, those Vandys must be almost as hard to drive as Apogees, so if the Transmitters sounded great on them, maybe the same with Duettas or Divas?

 

[Zero000]

What the NAT Transmitter cannot do with Omegas is do the dynamics bit. I know because I have heard them try. Lovely mids, no obvious lack of low end control. But clout? Nope. Ked is right.

However, my 211s can do clout with Duettas. Love to try the Transmitter on the Duettas to see if it can do the same.

Not trying to belittle the Transmiiter, you understand

 

[FrantzM]

spirit

I , for one am waiting to hear how your SET will go with the Apogee. Just a bit of data from what I think is Peter's Vandersteeen, those have built-in amplifers for their woofers, The SET amps were not driving woofers in that case.
I will drop the issue as I think I sound as if I am dead "set" against SET on Apogees ... TBH ... I am... Sorry...:b

Having a little bit of fun. Please don't take it too seriously

 

[bonzo75]

Vandy harder. Too low a sensitivity and as a cone need to be driven louder than a panel. Marc, moral of the story is NAT can drive your apogees just don't rely on it.

 

[Zero000]

Now in this one the video is a lot less well composed, chiefly due to SPL. However, even when dumping high power into the speaker, it stays composed. I, however, do NOT stay so well composed.

The thing is, because they stay composed, they sound pretty much the same as there isn't any distortion to tell you IT IS REALLY FRINGIN' LOUD!!! So they still sound good, and you must watch your SPL levels especially when drinking, or you'll wake up with tinnitus.

The MRT movement is much more pronounced is this one.

 

[LL21]

cool stuff, User211...what music are you playing, by the way?

 

[Zero000]

Basically, what can happen is you listen at 90 odd DB peaks, you have a drink or two, and you get familiar with the volume level. You therefore decide to crank it up, but your chilled after a few drinks, so you think it is cool. And somehow is sounds even better...

It is a good way to potentially not do your ears any good. Being volume constrained by your amps is actually desirable in a good many ways. It stops that kind of behaviour.

 

[Zero000]

cool stuff, User211...what music are you playing, by the way?

That last one was Dub Spencer and Trance Hill again but this time from Physical Echoes. That track was "Polar".

 

[henk]

The MRT movement is much more pronounced in this one.

And that's a good reason to turn the volume down. The MRTW only starts moving because the amp is not happy. It's the only way I've ever seen a duetta MRTW fried: It overheats because the amp clips, and starts curling backward. And then it's time for a new ribbon

 

[Zero000]

And that's a good reason to turn the volume down. The MRTW only starts moving because the amp is not happy. It's the only way I've ever seen a duetta MRTW fried: It overheats because the amp clips, and starts curling backward. And then it's time for a new ribbon

The amp isn't clipping there Henk. It'll do more without question. They are powerful beasts. The MRT will move a lot at lower SPL - just depends what you are playing.

But I take your point. Clipping amps - not good.