Vinyl Rips: Where analog meets digital and what can they tell us?

[Fiddle Faddle]

I just read this in a review on AcousticSounds website - were you the author?

I just received an email from Analogue Productions (authored by Chad) today. It was addressed to all subscribers to this particular series as well as anyone who has purchased this title (and / or Witches Brew). It reads (in part):

"...We regret to inform you of a defective run of LPs for the Analogue Productions reissues of Witches' Brew/Gibson/New Symphony Orchestra of London (AAPC 2225) and Gounod: Faust - Ballet Music - Bizet: Carmen Suite/Gibson/ROHO (AAPC 2449). After further review of these LPs, we are not satisfied with their audio quality and have decided to again remaster them and to then re-distribute both of these products..."

 

[Bruce B]

I just received an email from Analogue Productions (authored by Chad) today. It was addressed to all subscribers to this particular series as well as anyone who has purchased this title (and / or Witches Brew). It reads (in part):

"...We regret to inform you of a defective run of LPs for the Analogue Productions reissues of Witches' Brew/Gibson/New Symphony Orchestra of London (AAPC 2225) and Gounod: Faust - Ballet Music - Bizet: Carmen Suite/Gibson/ROHO (AAPC 2449). After further review of these LPs, we are not satisfied with their audio quality and have decided to again remaster them and to then re-distribute both of these products..."

Wonder if someone got fired??

 

[MadFloyd]

I just received an email from Analogue Productions (authored by Chad) today. It was addressed to all subscribers to this particular series as well as anyone who has purchased this title (and / or Witches Brew). It reads (in part):

"...We regret to inform you of a defective run of LPs for the Analogue Productions reissues of Witches' Brew/Gibson/New Symphony Orchestra of London (AAPC 2225) and Gounod: Faust - Ballet Music - Bizet: Carmen Suite/Gibson/ROHO (AAPC 2449). After further review of these LPs, we are not satisfied with their audio quality and have decided to again remaster them and to then re-distribute both of these products..."

Weird. I am a subscriber and didn't get this message. Also, I did play my Faust over the past weekend and couldn't detect what you described.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Wonder if someone got fired??

At the very least, there is almost certainly an issue with their test pressing evaluation procedure. Every LP pressed off those stampers will have precisely the same problem. Whether consumers hear it or not is another matter since it does not change the fact that it is there. But as professionals they really ought to be using evaluators who have sufficiently honed listening skills to pick up on these sorts of defects (not that great listening skills are even needed for such obvious faults), otherwise what is the point of test pressings. This release quite frankly horrified me. I've heard Crossley's with better speed stability!

It will be interesting to see if they go with the same engineer next time around. I assume they must have brought it to their attention and the equipment fault was then detected. I wonder who pays for this - literally? On the one hand the problem obviously occurred during the actual remastering process. On the other hand, Analogue Productions should have picked it up during evaluation, at which point the engineer would have fixed the fault and re-cut it.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Weird. I am a subscriber and didn't get this message.

Not sure why you did not get it as it appears to be a generic one sent to everyone who has bought a copy from them. In any case, from what I gather, you don't need to take any action. They will be sending out replacements once they have been remastered a second time.

This was the rest of the letter:

"...While we're certainly disappointed to have reached this point, we remain committed to an unmatched standard of excellence. We want Analogue Productions to remain the highest-quality reissue label.

Plans for the remastering of these titles and their subsequent re-pressing and re-distribution are still being formed. We will share more details as they are available, but please rest assured that you will receive a replacement disc should you have purchased one or both of the first run of these Analogue Productions LPs.

We very much appreciate your patience as we work to bring you the finest possible versions of these two outstanding records..."

 

[Chris F]

Do those who make vinyl rips have favorite record cleaning machines that they prefer to use? I find that even the chemicals can make an audible difference, and the method of removing the chemicals. Also, have people experimented with demagnifying the LP before recording?

I use a DIY ultrasonic machine:
80Khz lab grade ultrasonic machine -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Elma-So...357844?hash=item35dc6c6494:g:BLUAAOSwq7JUEwi6 (tip: call Tovatech the North American distributor directly for best price)
Vinyl Stack -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultrasonic-...inyl-Stack-ULTRA-Sonic-Spin-Kit-/161402849405

4L distilled water
80ml 99.9% isopropyl alcohol (1:50 dilution)
3-4ml of kodak photo flo as surfactant (1:1000 dilution)

This is much cheaper then the KL and by all accounts works as well or better then the 40Khz commercial machines (KL/Audiodesk) due to the slightly better cavitation at 80Khz over a wider range of particle sizes.

I find the best way is to do a regular (quick) clean on the VPI first using L'Art Du Son. Then pop it over to the ultrasonic and let it go for about 3 full rotations (15 minutes) at 80Khz. Do final rise with distilled water on VPI or you can just let it air dry.

As for the results; I compared the amount of repairs done by various algorithms (click repair and iZotope) and the Ultrasonic improves the already cleaned on VPI result by 10-15% almost every time. It also lowers the noise floor with all records by about 1dB which is where the real magic is. I don't know how it does this but the effect (blacker background) is audible on every record.

 

[MadFloyd]

I use a DIY ultrasonic machine:
80Khz lab grade ultrasonic machine -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Elma-So...357844?hash=item35dc6c6494:g:BLUAAOSwq7JUEwi6 (tip: call Tovatech the North American distributor directly for best price)
Vinyl Stack -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultrasonic-...inyl-Stack-ULTRA-Sonic-Spin-Kit-/161402849405

4L distilled water
80ml 99.9% isopropyl alcohol (1:50 dilution)
3-4ml of kodak photo flo as surfactant (1:1000 dilution)

This is much cheaper then the KL and by all accounts works as well or better then the 40Khz commercial machines (KL/Audiodesk) due to the slightly better cavitation at 80Khz over a wider range of particle sizes.

I find the best way is to do a regular (quick) clean on the VPI first using L'Art Du Son. Then pop it over to the ultrasonic and let it go for about 3 full rotations (15 minutes) at 80Khz. Do final rise with distilled water on VPI or you can just let it air dry.

As for the results; I compared the amount of repairs done by various algorithms (click repair and iZotope) and the Ultrasonic improves the already cleaned on VPI result by 10-15% almost every time. It also lowers the noise floor with all records by about 1dB which is where the real magic is. I don't know how it does this but the effect (blacker background) is audible on every record.

Interesting post! I have a few questions:

You list 2 items - they are to be used together? The Vinyl Stack claims to be an ultrasonic cleaner but by the looks of it is only an LP rotator...

You mention that you still use L'Art Du Son on your VPI beforehand... what is your experience if you skip that step?

I currently use an AudioDesk cleaner but can't tell whether the ultrasonic aspect is still working or not. I want to replace it and have been considering the KL Audio but can't afford it currently - so I'm interested in this solution if it works well enough that I don't have to use a VPI beforehand...

How much of a discount can be had by going to Tovatech directly?

 

[Chris F]

Yes the vinyl stack just rotates; you need to buy a separate bath. As you can see in the pictures the "stack" attaches via neodyium magnet to the spinner with is driven by a power supply with adjustable voltage so that (at lowest speed) it turns at about 1 revolution/5 mins. You can put up to 3 records in at once, the labels are protected via rubber rings. It's very DIY home made but the parts quality is good and very solid/durable.

Full details are here:
http://thevinylstack.com/ultrasonic-cleaning/ultra-sonic-spin-record-cleaning-kit/


You can use any appropriately sized (see the vinyl stack page) ultrasonic bath. I listed the one which is "best" (80Khz transducers) but you can get one of the Chinese no name brand ones for much less or you can go in the middle and get one from VibratoLLC (a guy who used to work for one of the Ultrasonic companies;Sonix I think?) and now does his own.

For example a friend of mine in Colombia who I buy records from bought this one Chinese one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220445573471?_trksid=p2057872.m2748.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:ITand

He loves it. He also has a VPI 16.5 and hears the improvement.

Initial clean on the VPI is probably not needed if the record is fairly clean to start with. I have not done any sort of serious A/B as it's impossible; I can't unclean it! I just like to be through and it only takes an extra minute or two per record. I have found there are some records that the VPI does nothing for which the Ultrasonic will miraculously revive to like new. I think these are records that have things like nicotine residue on them that the VPI can't deal with. You get a ton of gunk on the stylus if you play them before but after they are mint.

Edit: For a 40Khz machine I would only use 2 records at a time as you want 1.5" (40Khz wavelength) between all surfaces

 

[FrantzM]

At those prices, a no-brainer .. Would be interesting to see if these contraptions turn out to be more reliable than the KL ...
Ordering as I type this

 

[MadFloyd]

At those prices, a no-brainer .. Would be interesting to see if these contraptions turn out to be more reliable than the KL ...
Ordering as I type this

Isn't the KL ultra reliable?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

At those prices, a no-brainer .. Would be interesting to see if these contraptions turn out to be more reliable than the KL ...
Ordering as I type this

I've had my KLaudio for 3 years. it's been perfect.

OTOH I owned 3 different Audiodesk RCM's; 2 of them failed. I sold the 3rd one prior to any issues and know that they are now much better.

but I don't know where the 'hope they are more reliable than the KL' comes from. the KL is built like a tank. open one up and you will be impressed by it's robustness.

 

[Chris F]

Here is the big ultrasonic record cleaner thread from DIYAudio if you have time to spare:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/218276-my-version-ultrasonic-record-cleaner.html

I summarized in my original post however in the thread you will find discussion of the merits of 80Khz vs 60Hz vs 40Khz transducers, the best bath formula and other good technical talk.

If you do end up going for the Elma and calling Tovatech mention that you are a home enthusiast doing a DIY record cleaner. No guarantee, but the lady on the phone gave me a very good price on my P60H when I told her this.

 

[Bruce B]

At those prices, a no-brainer .. Would be interesting to see if these contraptions turn out to be more reliable than the KL ...
Ordering as I type this

I have only heard of one KLAudio unit going down for repair... but many AD cleaners going back to the manufacturer.

 

[FrantzM]

I've had my KLaudio for 3 years. it's been perfect.

OTOH I owned 3 different Audiodesk RCM's; 2 of them failed. I sold the 3rd one prior to any issues and know that they are now much better.

but I don't know where the 'hope they are more reliable than the KL' comes from. the KL is built like a tank. open one up and you will be impressed by it's robustness.

You're right was thinking about the Audiodesk RCM. The contraption mentioned earlier is a little bit weird but not so much as to be a deterrent for me. I'll see how reliable it is.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I have only heard of one KLAudio unit going down for repair... but many AD cleaners going back to the manufacturer.

A failed AD cleaner (at a retail store) was actually what prompted me to stop having stores do it for me and to get my own (technically vastly inferior but sonically no different to my ears) cleaner. And that aforementioned AD cleaner was out of commission for many months too - I think about 5 months. So if you own an AD cleaner it looks like you have to be prepared for long waiting periods to get it going again if the experience of the store I used to buy from is anything to go by. From what I understand any significant repairs (perhaps even all?) have to be done in Germany where they are made.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

A failed AD cleaner (at a retail store) was actually what prompted me to stop having stores do it for me and to get my own (technically vastly inferior but sonically no different to my ears) cleaner. And that aforementioned AD cleaner was out of commission for many months too - I think about 5 months. So if you own an AD cleaner it looks like you have to be prepared for long waiting periods to get it going again if the experience of the store I used to buy from is anything to go by. From what I understand any significant repairs (perhaps even all?) have to be done in Germany where they are made.

I don't know Audiodesk's current program, but when I had my issues a few (5-6) years ago with my first and later second AD RCM, I have to give AD (and their importer) credit for offering me a speedy 'refurbished' no cost but shipping replacement. within a week of them receiving my 'dead' unit I had a functioning RCM.

again; not sure how that might go now, and I have moved on to the KL and could not be happier.

but I was not left holding the bag by Audiodesk.

 

[Gregadd]

1.Digital can preserve the differences between subtle Vinyl hardware. You change a cart or a TT it is apparent in the rip. Do we have that? YES! Check that one.
2.A Vinyl rip will fool most seasoned audiophiles into thinking they are listening to Vinyl? Do we have that too? YES
FRANTZ

THOSE ARE TWO HUGE ASSUMPTIONS. Has that been proven in any formal study? Use of such terms as "...most seasoned audiophiles..." is a gross generalization.

 

[microstrip]

DIY skilled people can get 50W-40KHZ-Ultrasonic-Piezoelectric Transducers with drivers for less than usd 50. each. The D-CLN-LP200 uses four x 50-Watt, 40kHz ultrasonic transducers and KL audio clearly reports that higher frequencies did not result in better results using their LPs.

The critical issue with DIY cleaners are the long term effects of the cleaning - with well known machines we expect that the guinea pig phase is now gone ...


Fortunately my one year old (later version) AudioDesk RCM never had any problem, as in Europe the KL Audio is much more expensive than the AD.

 

[Gregadd]

I suppose we can always do better. I never looked at my own records under a microscope. I did see other records after cleaning being examined under a microscope after being cleaned by the VPI 16.5. It just wasn't anything there. When you combine that with repeated cleanings and unfortunately playing over which is probably the best cleaning you can get,the records were pristine.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I don't know Audiodesk's current program, but when I had my issues a few (5-6) years ago with my first and later second AD RCM, I have to give AD (and their importer) credit for offering me a speedy 'refurbished' no cost but shipping replacement. within a week of them receiving my 'dead' unit I had a functioning RCM.

again; not sure how that might go now, and I have moved on to the KL and could not be happier.

but I was not left holding the bag by Audiodesk.

Thanks for a balancing point of view Mike. I was careful to mention my own experience as an anecdotal one because of the very possibility of reports such as yours where they offer stellar backup (as is the case in your experience).

It is true that with the store I dealt with, I obviously wasn't dealing directly with AD. I emailed the store a number of times over the period when their AD machine was out of commission to the point where I was wondering why the shop did not have ANY contingency plan in place. I kept getting the same story over and over that it was in Germany being repaired. Worse still, the store continued to pro-actively advertise their AD cleaning service despite not having the advertised equipment to perform it.

Personally I felt that store needed to learn a bit more in how to be customer-focussed (not just because of that incident) though from my point of view it nevertheless still gave AD a bad name. Then again, here in my country it could well be that the local distributer has sole responsibility to provide temporary equipment in the case of failures. In the end though, none of the above mitigates the extraordinary amount of time taken to repair it, though if it was sent sea-mail both ways, that probably does!