Ultrasonic Cavitation & Cleaning Explained

[Neil.Antin]

How long do you think it would otherwise have to take for such damage to occur?

Tony,
No good answer - too many variables. It would be equipment and record composition dependent.

Take care,
Neil

 

[Neil.Antin]

Who is the manufacturer?
Not sure of your reference to Mobile Fidelity. The ones I use are not from them.

The Nagaoka sleeves are so thin, they are difficult to use and offer less protection to the record. The increase in handling liability is too high for me. YMMV

Tim,

The sleeve with the defect was sold by SleeveCity - the same that you use. Otherwise, I am cognizant of the thinness of the Nagaoka inner sleeve. The thin material has pluses and minuses. A problem with some newly pressed 180-gm records is the edge is not finished - leaving a rough edge that can abrade the sleeve. The thin sleeve may be more flexible and avoid the abrasion, but it really comes down to the user. No doubt the thicker inner sleeves are more convenient, but I am tired of having to reclean records caused by those sleeves of lesser quality. As I said, we will see.

Take care,
Neil

 

[rDin]

The NAGAOKA Inner Sleeves are very thin, and you need to take your time inserting the record into the jacket to keep the lower edge from crumpling. But it's a very simple design which tends to make getting consistent quality easier. To me the slight inconvenience is insignificant. We will see.

Have been using these sleeves from the first time record collecting in the late 1990s. Superb sleeves. You get used to handling them quite quickly, but, yes, they will crumple easily if you fumble them.

 

[tony22]

@Neil.Antin, when using the Liquinox .5% pre-clean solution on a vacuum RCM, is there a time factor at play in how well the record is cleaned, or is it only tied to the degree of scrubbing done on the record? If only the latter, do you have any tips for the amount / time of scrubbing?

 

[Neil.Antin]

@Neil.Antin, when using the Liquinox .5% pre-clean solution on a vacuum RCM, is there a time factor at play in how well the record is cleaned, or is it only tied to the degree of scrubbing done on the record? If only the latter, do you have any tips for the amount / time of scrubbing?

Tony:

First - the effectiveness of the Liquinox is based on its agitation. Second, the rule of thumb is to agitate the fluid enough to develop foam enough that it fills the brush. To get this amount of foam, you need to move the brush back&forth in short motions quickly and the time spent on 1-side may be ~1-min but I would not bother timing yourself.

If the record is a dirty flea market, then as the book discusses, IV.1.1 Exceptionally Dirty - Records that have tightly adherent contamination on top of the record such as mildew or oily residue; i.e., resurrecting a flea-market find. These records should receive the pre-clean step twice with the Alconox™ Liquinox™.

Take care,
Neil

 

[tony22]

Thanks Neil, and a Happy Holidays to all the UCM maniacs out there!

 

[tima]

Since there is a brief discussion here of record inner sleeves, here is a thread on topic:

Vinyl sleeves

I’m getting a lot of new records in the next few weeks and desire to take care of them. They will be cleaned with a Degritter when I receive them, but I was wondering about which type of vinyl sleeve to place them in. I know paper sleeves may cause some problems, so which vinyl sleeves do you...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[tony22]

So DIW gets pretty expensive after a while. Without wanting to go too crazy and expensive, how would one rank the order of the quality of these alternatives:

1. Distilled water purchased at like a supermarket or a Target
2. Running tap water through one of those ZeroWater things
3. Either 1 or 2, also run through a .2 micron absolute filter

Will any of these be “good enough”?

 

[Neil.Antin]

So DIW gets pretty expensive after a while. Without wanting to go too crazy and expensive, how would one rank the order of the quality of these alternatives:

1. Distilled water purchased at like a supermarket or a Target
2. Running tap water through one of those ZeroWater things
3. Either 1 or 2, also run through a .2 micron absolute filter

Will any of these be “good enough”?

Tony,

Either distilled water (option-1) or demineralized water (option-2) is fine - see the book Chapter VII. However, what are you currently using?

Otherwise, the book in Chapter VII does a cost analysis of the ZeroWater demineralizer filter, but the book shows 2021 costs. You would need to check the current initial cost and replacement filter cost to see how much they have changed. Additionally, for the ZeroWater, the gallons/filter is based on your tap water TDS; they have a chart that shows the ~gallons/filter for input TDS. Furthermore, the book Chapter VII shows other methods of making DIW with cost analysis for each.

Take care,
Neil

 

[tima]

So DIW gets pretty expensive after a while. Without wanting to go too crazy and expensive, how would one rank the order of the quality of these alternatives:

1. Distilled water purchased at like a supermarket or a Target
2. Running tap water through one of those ZeroWater things
3. Either 1 or 2, also run through a .2 micron absolute filter

Will any of these be “good enough”?

Grocery store distilled water is what I use. In my area there can be quality differences across brands, based on TDS meter readings. I suggest testing a bottle first before purchasing a quantity -- bring your meter to the store!

 

[tony22]

Tony,

Either distilled water (option-1) or demineralized water (option-2) is fine - see the book Chapter VII. However, what are you currently using?

I’ve been buying deionized water from resellers on Amazon. Pricey.

 

[tima]

Water of any kind is expensive to ship in small quantities. Roughly 42 ib for 5 gallons. I pay $1.00 for a gallon of distilled at the grocery.

 

[MarcelNL]

distill your own
The apparatus does not need to be able to produce high purity ethanol, single distilled water is enough. I bought an electric heated distiller off ebay for my espresso machine a few years back, it produces a gallon in like 4 hours all by itself.

 

[tony22]

I bought distilled water at a Target store. Their brand, I guess. It’s called Good&Gather. Tested two containers with my COM-100. 0.2ppm TDS and 0.3ppm TDS. Not bad, I guess, for distilled?

 

[Neil.Antin]

I bought distilled water at a Target store. Their brand, I guess. It’s called Good&Gather. Tested two containers with my COM-100. 0.2ppm TDS and 0.3ppm TDS. Not bad, I guess, for distilled?

Per the book, Chapter VII, Table VI Water Quality Specifications that reading exceeds ASTM D1193 Type 4 (<2.5-ppm) for Purified Water by Distillation, Mixed-Bed Resin, or Reverse Osmosis, and in-fact meets ASTM D1193 Type 2 (<0.5-ppm) Pure Water by multiple steps of Distillation and or Mixed-Bed Resin. So, the distilled water you bought is VERY GOOD.

 

[tony22]

Per the book, Chapter VII, Table VI Water Quality Specifications that reading exceeds ASTM D1193 Type 4 (<2.5-ppm) for Purified Water by Distillation, Mixed-Bed Resin, or Reverse Osmosis, and in-fact meets ASTM D1193 Type 2 (<0.5-ppm) Pure Water by multiple steps of Distillation and or Mixed-Bed Resin. So, the distilled water you bought is VERY GOOD.

Thanks Neil. I did read that, but hearing it in direct terms is always nice! What doesn’t that book have in it?

 

[redandgold]

With a 6-L, 40kHz unit, and 2-rpm, you should not clean more than 1-record at a time. For 2-records, 1.5-rpm is max, so a 1-rpm spinner is fine.

In general, if you add a pump/filter, do not use it when cleaning, use it when you stop cleaning and you are reloading the spinner. See the book XIV.15.3 for the equation to use to determine how long you need to operate the pump to filter the tank; it's not just simply the tank volume divided by the pump flow rate.

If you have the financial resources, the German made Elmasonic P60H dual frequency 37-kHz/80-kHz is pretty much the best available 6L US tank PP_Elmasonic_P60H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com). You get the best of both worlds - 37-kHz for the gross cleaning and 80-kHz for the fine particulate with variable power and pulse power options. @tima uses the P120H (12-L) for cleaning and then a lower cost 12-L Elmasonic unit for rinsing.

But, to get started, you can use the P60H with a no-rinse concentration of Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.003% to 0.005% to get just wetting and then operate 10-min at 37 kHz @ 75-90% power followed by 10-min at 80-kHz at 100% power with pulse.

There are obviously much cheaper Chinese US tanks available but keep in-mind not all power ratings are the same. The Elmasonic P-series are powerful units verified by how quickly they heat the tank with just US. As I wrote previous, I just worked with someone using the Elmasonic P60H and to allow serial cleaning we needed to add a pump & radiator.

As far as a pump & filter, if you have a ready supply of DIW, you can just refresh the tank frequently. How frequently depends on how dirty the records are. But just keep in-mind that after the first records, absent a filter, the follow-on records are spinning in the detritus removed from the previous records. Waiting until the bath is visibly dirty is too long. Bath management of US tanks is detail that needs attention if you want the best cleaning performance.

Keep us advised,

Neil

1. I have watched the data sheet of your proposed US machine. The internal tank dimension is width 300 mm. This is near to the same diameter a record has. How can you put a record in this tank?

2. Are there any US machines which go higher in the frequency? Perfect Vinyl Forever feels, after the basic wash/rinse they should apply additional higher frequency with 125 kHz and 220 kHz to go with their micro bubbles deep to the ground.

 

[Neil.Antin]

1. I have watched the data sheet of your proposed US machine. The internal tank dimension is width 300 mm. This is near to the same diameter a record has. How can you put a record in this tank?

2. Are there any US machines which go higher in the frequency? Perfect Vinyl Forever feels, after the basic wash/rinse they should apply additional higher frequency with 125 kHz and 220 kHz to go with their micro bubbles deep to the ground.

The width of the record at the label is about 10"/255-mm.

For DIY UT setups, one of the best UT tanks (that are reasonable in cost) are the Elmasonic P-series that operate at 37-kHz and 80-kHz and are powerful enough for high cavitation intensity.; example of a 6-L version - PP_Elmasonic_P60H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com); @tima uses a 12-L version - PP_Elmasonic_P120H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com). The Elmasonic P-series has many different operating modes including one that automatically varies between 37-kHz and 80-kHz.

As far as high frequency, please be aware of the basic rules for UT tank summarized in the very first post of this thread - Ultrasonic Cavitation & Cleaning Explained | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com). Higher kHz in theory is better at removing very small particles, but if the tank is under-powered you will not get all the benefit you can. Additionally, for cleaning records, there is really very little benefit >80-kHz and this article awad-reprint II (crest-ultrasonics.com) somewhat highlights that with "It was also reported that there was zero or little difference in the removal efficiency of particles at the ultrasonic frequency of 65 kHz and at the megasonic frequency of 862 kHz. Both frequencies showed 95 percent removal efficiency of one micron particles and 87/90, 84/84 for 0.7 and 0.5 micron particles, respectively."

So, if we look at two UT tanks of the same size (Liters) and power, one 80-kHz, and the other 120-kHz, the 80-kHz will have greater cavitation intensity and will likely clean better than the 120-kHz. The 120-kHz may be able to remove some really small particles but they become so small as to be insignificant for record play and the 120-kHz tank maybe under-powered. Also, another complication is that cleaning particles from a record surface is different than a metallic surface and the attraction of particles, the energy required to remove the particles from the two surfaces is different and as the particle size decreases, the energy required to remove the particle increases exponentially and this is addressed in various books such as Particle Adhesion and Removal | Wiley Online Books and this paper Adhesion and Removal of Fine Particles on Surfaces, Aerosol Science and Technology, M. B. Ranade, 1987 (Adhesion and Removal of Fine Particles on Surfaces: Aerosol Science and Technology: Vol 7, No 2 (tandfonline.com) shows for aluminum oxide particles, the force (acceleration) required to remove a 10-micron particle is 4.5 x 10^4 g’s, a 1-micron particle is 4.5 x 10^6 g’s and a 0.1-micron particle is 4.5 x 10^8 g’s.

When it comes to getting the best possible from a UT tank for record cleaning (or any cleaning for that matter), the devil is in details.

 

[Neil.Antin]

2. Are there any US machines which go higher in the frequency? Perfect Vinyl Forever feels, after the basic wash/rinse they should apply additional higher frequency with 125 kHz and 220 kHz to go with their micro bubbles deep to the ground.

Let me answer this directly and say yes there are industrial ultrasonic tanks that have multiple frequencies such as PROHT Series Benchtop Cleaning Systems | Blackstone-NEY | CTG (ctgclean.com) and MultiSONIC Multi Frequency Ultrasonic Generators | Cleaning Technologies Group LLC (ctgclean.com). These are industrial machines where the UT generator is mounted external to the UT tank, but note that these industrial multisonic units operate with 240-VAC. And these industrial units are not cheap - here are some prices without the multisonic option - PROHT-Series Ultrasonic Cleaners by Blackstone-NEY (terrauniversal.com).

 

[redandgold]

Dear Neil,

first: Thank you, that you spend so much time answering all question and give so much detailed information about this topic. And, offer your book as free download!

I have read the whole thread and will start reading your book soon.

Indeed your proposal Elmasonic P 60 H is my favorite for lower US, so I read the data sheet.

I am from Germany, so 240 VAC would be perfect. I have never found a professional tank in the internet. Yes, the price is stiff and I have to think about. I just wonder, how the Degritter could be offered to a that lower price!

Let me answer some details:

So despite you should us protection for the labels, you don't go deeper as a tangent line of the label. Understood. But I took a normal 12'' record and measuring the width at this tangent is 28,5 cm. That means I have only ,8 cm to the edge of the record on both sides and to take care. Correct?

As I read your whole thread, which is great, I understood the ratio between needed power and removal efficiency. But if I would be O.K. using much more power, would the cleaning effect not be better? (I am just curious why the Degritter by decision uses 120 kHz and why the only professional record cleaning service PVF uses additionally 125 kHz and 220 kHz.) My stylus cut is sharp and I suppose the mid and deep area of the groove could have a benefit. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong. It is just my idea to start cleaning/rinsing with 37 and 80 kHz and as next steps going higher.