Transparency vs. Synergy?

Ethan Winer

Banned
Jul 8, 2010
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I can not understand what you want to bring to this debate.

Sanity. :D

reliable tests are not easy

So the better alternative is to continue believing in faeries and unicorns?

I know I'll never convince those who already spent thousands of dollars on wires and "power" products and need to justify their cost. And I'll certainly never get people who sell those items to (publicly) agree with me. But for every person who refuses to question their own beliefs, there are probably five more reading who really do want to know what matters and what doesn't, and what's worth buying and what's not. Really, you guys should just put me on Ignore. I'm sure you'll be much happier.

--Ethan
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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I know I'll never convince those who already spent thousands of dollars on wires and "power" products and need to justify their cost. And I'll certainly never get people who sell those items to (publicly) agree with me. But for every person who refuses to question their own beliefs, there are probably five more reading who really do want to know what matters and what doesn't, and what's worth buying and what's not. Really, you guys should just put me on Ignore. I'm sure you'll be much happier.

--Ethan

You have no idea what really matters Ethan. That is clear. You have no experience with a hi-end system, as such your assertions carry no weight or credibility. I think you would be a great sales person in the Best Buy audio dept. I think at that level of equipment, you might have an idea what is going on. Leave the hi-end audio comments to others who actually have real life experience in that realm.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Sanity. :D



So the better alternative is to continue believing in faeries and unicorns?

I know I'll never convince those who already spent thousands of dollars on wires and "power" products and need to justify their cost. And I'll certainly never get people who sell those items to (publicly) agree with me. But for every person who refuses to question their own beliefs, there are probably five more reading who really do want to know what matters and what doesn't, and what's worth buying and what's not. Really, you guys should just put me on Ignore. I'm sure you'll be much happier.

--Ethan

image.jpg
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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Sanity. :D



So the better alternative is to continue believing in faeries and unicorns?

I know I'll never convince those who already spent thousands of dollars on wires and "power" products and need to justify their cost. And I'll certainly never get people who sell those items to (publicly) agree with me. But for every person who refuses to question their own beliefs, there are probably five more reading who really do want to know what matters and what doesn't, and what's worth buying and what's not. Really, you guys should just put me on Ignore. I'm sure you'll be much happier.

--Ethan

We are not here for sanity, we are supposed to know that stereo sound reproduction is an illusion :) and, most of all an individual experience. But we believe we can learn from others.

It seems to me that the you are the only one who would be happier if we did not debate your arguments. IMHO the pseudo tests you want audiophiles to carry without any other purpose than destroying the confidence of people have very limited success in WBF.
 

microstrip

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(...) I'm sure you'll continue to pretend to not believe anything I say :D but a lot of my friends are professional musicians and recording engineers, and many of them bring their works in progress to my home to hear on both of my systems because the playback is so clean and clear, and both rooms are well treated acoustically and thus very neutral.

--Ethan

Curiously I read is that most people believe in the facts you report and and also have simple explanations for them - but different from yours. And we should remember the old argument that professionals have very different needs and sensitivities than typical listeners - F. Toole explained it in his book. It seems your friends appreciate your system, but many people have different preferences.
 

microstrip

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MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Great picture Myles - I loved the traffic signal. Should we remember that Dulcinea never shows in D. Quixote? ;)

:)

You have to excuse Ethan. He still thinks he's posting on wreck.audio.high-end.opinion. Here, there, Stereophile (that booted him), Facebook....it's always the same old stuff over and over again. This stuff has been going on for at least 15 years. Just goes to show you consistency isn't always a virtue.
 

Ethan Winer

Banned
Jul 8, 2010
1,231
3
0
75
New Milford, CT
You have no idea what really matters Ethan. That is clear. You have no experience with a hi-end system, as such your assertions carry no weight or credibility. I think you would be a great sales person in the Best Buy audio dept. I think at that level of equipment, you might have an idea what is going on. Leave the hi-end audio comments to others who actually have real life experience in that realm.

More insults. Have I insulted you? Why are you insulting me? I'm certain that personal insults are frowned upon here. You'd do much better to say, "You're wrong Ethan, and here's why" followed by a clear and specific explanation. If you can't explain why I'm wrong, perhaps you should change your opinion. The same goes for others who have only insults with no substance.

--Ethan
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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More insults. Have I insulted you? Why are you insulting me? I'm certain that personal insults are frowned upon here. You'd do much better to say, "You're wrong Ethan, and here's why" followed by a clear and specific explanation. If you can't explain why I'm wrong, perhaps you should change your opinion. The same goes for others who have only insults with no substance.

--Ethan

Your complete denial of the merits of hi-end audio (and all that entails) is very insulting to people who embrace it. You seem to imply people that spend a significant amount of money on stereo equipment, cables, ect don't know what they are talking about, can't hear correctly or can't hear the difference, ect. I certainly have nothing else to discuss with you. :rolleyes:
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
3,374
42
383
Ireland
........ I'm sure you'll continue to pretend to not believe anything I say :D

--Ethan

Ethan, I don't pretend that you do not hear what you say (somewhat insulting to suggest I'm pretending) - I believe that for whatever reason you don't hear what others, including myself, can hear with regard to MP3. High bitrate MP3 does not sound night & day different to lossless - it's in the realism & soundstage area (it loses depth) that it sounds different. I doubt this difference would this be picked up by instant A/B switching, for instance. It's a subtle enough difference that the better the system is (in these areas), the easier the difference would be identified.

I'm not sure I have ever heard you talk about depth of soundstage in your system - a clean & clear system may not be enough to reveal this difference - it requires you go to the next level of playback system where the ambience of the recording is readily audible.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
Ethan, I don't pretend that you do not hear what you say (somewhat insulting to suggest I'm pretending) - I believe that for whatever reason you don't hear what others, including myself, can hear with regard to MP3. High bitrate MP3 does not sound night & day different to lossless - it's in the realism & soundstage area (it loses depth) that it sounds different. I doubt this difference would this be picked up by instant A/B switching, for instance. It's a subtle enough difference that the better the system is (in these areas), the easier the difference would be identified.

I'm not sure I have ever heard you talk about depth of soundstage in your system - a clean & clear system may not be enough to reveal this difference - it requires you go to the next level of playback system where the ambience of the recording is readily audible.

It all comes down to what Amir has repeatedly said. The differences are readily identifiable if you know what to listen for and pick the right type of music. And he's done far more testing than Ethan ever has.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
Your complete denial of the merits of hi-end audio (and all that entails) is very insulting to people who embrace it. You seem to imply people that spend a significant amount of money on stereo equipment, cables, ect don't know what they are talking about, can't hear correctly or can't hear the difference, ect. I certainly have nothing else to discuss with you. :rolleyes:

Try never passing up an opportunity to **** on (and taking glee in that) audiophiles. How's that working out for your business Ethan?
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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Try never passing up an opportunity to **** on (and taking glee in that) audiophiles. How's that working out for your business Ethan?

The irony is that I use some of his bass traps. His resident expert never recommended diffusion, even after I supplied my room/floor plan. I was well trapped with Mondo, Mini and Ultra traps. Since I was new to room treatment at the time, I didn't know any better and relied on Real Traps expertise. My room was dead...my ears even felt strange entering it. I have since removed all of the Ultra traps they recommended for my ceiling and have since purchased RPG Skylines for the front and rear walls. Don't get me wrong, I feel the traps are a good product and do the job well...trapping that is. I have a nice stock of traps I no longer use taking up space in my storage area. I guess they can be used for another room someday.
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
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383
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It all comes down to what Amir has repeatedly said. The differences are readily identifiable if you know what to listen for and pick the right type of music. And he's done far more testing than Ethan ever has.
Yes, I was going to mention this but I reckoned that pointing out each point one at a time would perhaps be more effective.
I also believe a significant factor with Ethan is his expectation bias - his expectation that there is no difference.
All springs from this underlying foundational conviction.

It would be interesting to actually test how deeply this bias of his affects his listening discrimination? It's one of the many reasons why hidden controls should be included in any blind tests (as you have alluded to many times) & I have never seen him mention in any of his experiments.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
Yes, I was going to mention this but I reckoned that pointing out each point one at a time would perhaps be more effective.
I also believe a significant factor with Ethan is his expectation bias - his expectation that there is no difference.
All springs from this underlying foundational conviction.

It would be interesting to actually test how deeply this bias of his affects his listening discrimination? It's one of the many reasons why hidden controls should be included in any blind tests (as you have alluded to many times) & I have never seen him mention in any of his experiments.

But we still haven't addressed the issue of an internal standard eg. what can be discriminated period??????
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
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But we still haven't addressed the issue of an internal standard eg. what can be discriminated period??????
We can take some guidance from "For very small audio impairments, Recommendation ITU-R BS.1116-1 should be used"
It must be empirically and statistically shown that any failure to find differences among systems is not due to
experimental insensitivity because of poor choices of audio material, or any other weak aspects of the experiment, before
a “null” finding can be accepted as valid. In the extreme case where several or all systems are found to be fully
transparent, then it may be necessary to program special trials with low or medium anchors for the explicit purpose of
examining subject expertise (see Appendix 1).

These anchors must be known, (e.g. from previous research), to be detectable to expert listeners but not to inexpert
listeners. These anchors are introduced as test items to check not only for listener expertise but also for the sensitivity of
all other aspects of the experimental situation.

If these anchors, either embedded unpredictably within the context of apparently transparent items or else in a separate
test, are correctly identified by all listeners in a standard test method (§ 3 of this Annex) by applying the statistical
considerations outlined in Appendix 1, this may be used as evidence that the listener’s expertise was acceptable and that
there were no sensitivity problems in other aspects of the experimental situation. In this case, then, findings of apparent
transparency by these listeners is evidence for “true transparency”, for items or systems where those listeners cannot
differentiate coded from uncoded versions.

On the other hand, if these anchors fail such correct identification by any listeners, then this suggests that either these
listeners lacked sufficient expertise, or else that there were sensitivity flaws in the situation, or both. In that case, the
apparent transparency of systems cannot be properly interpreted, and the experiment will need to be run again with new
listeners to replace the ones who failed this additional test, and with any other changes that may increase experimental
sensitivity.
 

Ethan Winer

Banned
Jul 8, 2010
1,231
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75
New Milford, CT
I believe that for whatever reason you don't hear what others, including myself, can hear with regard to MP3.

I'm sure you believe that, but I'm pretty certain my hearing is more acute than most audiophiles and non-musicians. At age 65 my high frequency response is not as extended as a younger person's, but I'll bet money that my general audio perception is more refined than most people's.

High bitrate MP3 does not sound night & day different to lossless - it's in the realism & soundstage area (it loses depth)

What I think you miss is that width and depth are room acoustic issues, as well as reverb and delays embedded in the recording. These things are not removed by (high bit-rate) lossy compression. When someone claims that [something subtle] affects imaging, I believe it's due to other factors such as the acoustics of their room changing the response as they move their head a few inches.

I'm not sure I have ever heard you talk about depth of soundstage in your system - a clean & clear system may not be enough to reveal this difference - it requires you go to the next level of playback system where the ambience of the recording is readily audible.

I think the imaging in both my systems is excellent. Of course, you and others are welcome to not believe that. Earlier I mentioned the guy who was unable to reliably distinguish a 128 kbps MP3 from the original Wave file. This same guy was blown away by the clarity and imaging of my living room system. I have 5.1 speakers, but when playing stereo only the front L+R speakers play. Since these are active speakers, all three in the front have power LEDs. This fellow was certain that the center speaker was playing. So I told him to walk up to the speaker and listen directly. He couldn't believe it was silent, and the solid center image was being produced by only the L+R speakers. As always, anyone who lives near me is welcome to visit and hear both my systems for themselves.

--Ethan
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I'm sure you believe that, but I'm pretty certain my hearing is more acute than most audiophiles and non-musicians. At age 65 my high frequency response is not as extended as a younger person's, but I'll bet money that my general audio perception is more refined than most people's.



What I think you miss is that width and depth are room acoustic issues, as well as reverb and delays embedded in the recording. These things are not removed by (high bit-rate) lossy compression. When someone claims that [something subtle] affects imaging, I believe it's due to other factors such as the acoustics of their room changing the response as they move their head a few inches.



I think the imaging in both my systems is excellent. Of course, you and others are welcome to not believe that. Earlier I mentioned the guy who was unable to reliably distinguish a 128 kbps MP3 from the original Wave file. This same guy was blown away by the clarity and imaging of my living room system. I have 5.1 speakers, but when playing stereo only the front L+R speakers play. Since these are active speakers, all three in the front have power LEDs. This fellow was certain that the center speaker was playing. So I told him to walk up to the speaker and listen directly. He couldn't believe it was silent, and the solid center image was being produced by only the L+R speakers. As always, anyone who lives near me is welcome to visit and hear both my systems for themselves.

--Ethan


How could you possibly know that? That is extremely presumptuous on your part. Fox news is starting to look like they are unbiased.
 
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jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
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383
Ireland
.....
What I think you miss is that width and depth are room acoustic issues, as well as reverb and delays embedded in the recording. These things are not removed by (high bit-rate) lossy compression.
Oh, really - so compressed audio doesn't remove some low level detail? I know, you are going to reply that it is only removed when it is being masked by another signal. Are you sure this analysis & masking algorithm is 100% psychoacoustically accurate? Are you sure that all audio compression techniques achieve the same audibly transparent result?
When someone claims that [something subtle] affects imaging, I believe it's due to other factors such as the acoustics of their room changing the response as they move their head a few inches.
I've seen you put forth this attempt at explanation before but please, give us more credence for intelligence than this - it's the old "head in a vice" argument which is completely idiotic & ignores common sense & psychoacoustics
 

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