Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[nirodha]

Hello nirodha,
No, it is related to the German distributor, I just put it as an example of small space and vertical Spacehorns. I hope I will get AG G3 in the future, either a duo mezzo or trios.

To whet your appetite:

 

[Kozak170]

To whet your appetite:

The point is that, like Roy, he also used both input and the output of daisy-chain BNC sockets (on passive xover part), for signal grounding with QKore unit.



And the dedicated ground lug on the iTron module is apparently for the chassis grounding, which I guess Todd used CAD grounding in this part but as shown in this video, the QKore unit is also used on iTron module for chassis grounding.

 

[sbnx]

The point is that, like Roy, he also used both input and the output of daisy-chain BNC sockets (on passive xover part), for signal grounding with QKore unit.

View attachment 124000

And the dedicated ground lug on the iTron module is apparently for the chassis grounding, which I guess Todd used CAD grounding in this part but as shown in this video, the QKore unit is also used on iTron module for chassis grounding.

I use the Nordost Qkore for the iTron on the Trio and I use a CAD GC1 on the Spacehorn. Individually each box works great on its speaker. However, don't connect these two together on the same ground box. The result was not good.

On the spacehorn I have both the ground lug as well as an RJ45 cable connected to a single GC1. Both provided an improvement.

The BNC connections are for the switch module that allows the speaker to switched on the fly between an external amp and the iTron. If someone is not using the switch I suppose a ground box could be connected to that as well. My speaker currently doesn't have that option so I can't comment on the effectivness of a ground box on that BNC.

 

[caesar]

Hello everyone. I decided to post a video about integrating a subwoofer with the Trios. It is in my typical rambling fashion. i know there is stuff I left out but I think it is enough to get the gist of what is going on. I edited down the measurements to just the minimum to communicate the path to find a suitable location. If anyone has any specific questions about one of the measurements or how to interpret them or any of that stuff just ask.

Thanks. So what are the subjective sonic differences with and without the subwoofers? And I'm kind of surprised the spacehorns don't go lower. Wonder how much bigger they would need to be for that

 

[caesar]

Anyone know who this J.B. E'claire guy is, who helped the both guys in the review with the bass? (obviously I'm butchering the name - apol0gies!)

 

[LL21]

Anyone know who this J.B. E'claire guy is, who helped the both guys in the review with the bass? (obviously I'm butchering the name - apol0gies!)

Funny you should ask...I wonder if you mean J.R. Boisclair of Wally Analogue? I literally just pinged a post on another thread to Doctorwhy who owns XLFs and in his signature block has listed a "custom 4-speaker bass array by J.R. Boisclair of Wally Analogue". And I asked him about those since I am also looking to massively upgrade the Velodyne DD18+.

Wilson Audio XLF

I'm really curious about the tweak noted here. The use of stillpoints/HRS and 45lbs of damping...really? Can you tell me more about your perception of the magnitude of change in the dynamics. It appears from the photo that you have placed this weight right on top of the "can" behind the resistor...

whatsbestforum.com

 

[caesar]

Funny you should ask...I wonder if you mean J.R. Boisclair of Wally Analogue? I literally just pinged a post on another thread to Doctorwhy who owns XLFs and in his signature block has listed a "custom 4-speaker bass array by J.R. Boisclair of Wally Analogue". And I asked him about those since I am also looking to massively upgrade the Velodyne DD18+.

Wilson Audio XLF

I'm really curious about the tweak noted here. The use of stillpoints/HRS and 45lbs of damping...really? Can you tell me more about your perception of the magnitude of change in the dynamics. It appears from the photo that you have placed this weight right on top of the "can" behind the resistor...

whatsbestforum.com

Hi LL,
i think you got it! Apologies again. Interesting they both used the same guy- on oppposite coasts.

all the best

 

[sbnx]

I set out well over a year ago to establish a really quiet system that was capable of great tone, expressing minute levels of dynamic shading and would possess precise timing queues. Well, the Avantgarde Trio system has finally come together. For the first time in a year I am listening to two speakers. During that year I worked to understand the general location of the main trio + Spacehorns, the general location of the Torus subs and “roughly” integrating the left speaker. I had the left speaker to a point where I could easily evaluate changes to the system. I evaluated different grounding boxes and ground cables, different interconnects, different DAC, power cables, vibration control devices and the list goes on. I feel that I have achieved my goal.

This is the most musically expressive system I have ever experienced. It doesn’t have any of the typical negative horn traits. It sounds like a “normal”, coherent speaker with dynamics (both macro and micro) that are off the scale. This system has an insane amount of resolution. There is no brightness or glare. In fact, this system can be dangerous. I can listen to extremely high SPL’s without realizing it. The sound is so clean and pure that I simply don’t realize how loud it is.

I have one pair of the dual spacehorns. The spacehorn is perfectly integrated with the main trios. The volume on the spacehorns is currently set at -11.5 (-12 is the lowest it can go) yet the bass has extreme power. The bass is also very clean and articulate. I really don’t know how else to describe it. It has to be experienced to comprehend how this feels. The spacehorn is quite the cameleon. It is able to change and adapt to the type of music. It is truly mind boggling as to the range of sounds the spacehorns are capable of. They can be very light and airy sounding on the intro to Rossini’s L’Italiana in Algeri. They can produce chest pounding craziness on EDM. They can be round and thunderous on orchestral drums. They can sound plump on upright bass.

I always heard and heard people talk about horns lack of imaging. This is simply not true with the trios. With the trios properly dialed in I have extremely precise, perfectly sized images that are spread across a wide, tall and deep soundstage. All of the members of the orchestra are properly placed and none of the musicians are wandering around during the symphony. It is very easy to hear where the first violins are sitting compared to the second violins. Very easy to place all of the members of the orchestra -- the clarinet, oboe, bassoon, cello, double bass, horns, percussion, etc. all have their place and are very solid. As far as depth this is not a problem at all. In fact there is one peace of music I listen to that has a flock of birds chirping and swirling around. These birds are well behind and outside the left speaker. No issues at all with imaging and soundstage.

The sound is very melodic, whether listening to an oboe solo, piano solo, female vocals, jazz trio, EDM. It doesn’t matter. Everything sounds like music. I think in most “books” Avantgarde horns with CH Precision and Nordost cables would be a very unlikely combination of components to produce a rich, melodic sound. But there it is right in front of me. The artistic intent is obvious. One of the concerns I initially had was “Can an extremely resolving system still produce music?”. The answer is a resounding YES!

I discussed the subwoofer placement in one of the videos. I did add a pair of WB Torus subs to supplement the trio system below 35 Hz. I found the best general area with REW and then integrated that for time alignment. What this brought to the party is what all well integrated subs bring – an even bigger sense of space and subterranean substance. A pair of PureLow would be even better!

I left my wife alone to listen to the system. She stayed in there for quite a while listening to all kinds of stuff. She normally doesn’t listen very loudly. But as time went on it was easier and easier for me to hear the music in the kitchen. The volume just kept climbing. She said she really enjoyed the soundtrack to Wicked. Here are the adjectives she used to describe the sound: melodic, quiet, crisp, clear, syncopated, precise, beautiful.

To get to this point I booked time on Stirling Trayle’s calendar. The trio is a lot of speaker to wrangle and Stirling has what I think is the best ear in the industry. As he has done speaker setup for a living for many, many years, he can very quickly hear what is wrong and knows what needs to happen to the speaker to remove the malady. We spent over 80 hours together in the past week to fully dial in the system. (I don’t mean 40 hours for him and 40 hours for me. It was over 80 hours of work). It was an awesome, fun experience that I learned a lot from. The Trio is extremely sensitive and revealing of even the smallest of movements. Many of you who have followed this thread know that I use a digital level that is accurate to 0.001 degrees. At one point we were adjusting the azimuth of the left speaker. Stirling would go over to the speaker and make a very small turn of the spike. The effect was immediately audible. We made 5 such turns and it took four turns before the level moved 0.001 degrees. Amazing. By then end we were both totally exhausted. However, the result was totally worth the effort. I can not thank @stirlingtrayle enough for running this marathon with me.

I know a lot of you really love videos. I will post a few with various types of music clips.

 

[adyc]

Can I ask what is the final position of right speaker? Does the right speaker have the same azimuth, toe in and raking angle of left speaker? Do both speakers have the same distance to the listening position?

 

[sbnx]

I am posting the info below as a very rough general guidline for anyone setting up trios but certainly every room/setup is different so your numbers will be different. I need to get the height measurements as well.

The left and right speakers have different rake angles. My floor is not completely level so this necessitates a different rake angle on the right speaker to compensate. I am posting my rake and azimuth angles here mostly for future reference. The rake/azimuth will be different depending on lots of variables – listening distance, ear height, proximity to sidewall, etc. I used a laser jig that attached to the tweeter horn that allowed me to see exactly where the tweeter is pointed. I have it pointed at my ear lobe. During setup we used a dot on the wall that indicated where the tweeter should be pointed.

The Left Trio: Rake=2.039 degrees forward; Azimuth=0.001 degrees in
The Left Spacehorn: Rake=0.469 degrees back; Azimuth=0.155 degrees out
The Right Trio: Rake=2.303 degrees forward; Azimuth=0.004 degrees in
The Right Spacehorn: Rake=0.463 degrees back; Azimuth=0.140 degrees out

The distance from the Spacehorn to the Trio is approximately 5.25 inch. I used a square and put it on the inside edge of the top lip of the spacehorn and measured over to the trio frame (Where the on-switch is located). There is a little bit of toe-in on the spacehorn. The distance from the back of the spacehorn to the trio frame is about another 1/16 of an inch (5 5/16").

The distance from the centerline to the Trio is 59.5 inches. The distance is measure from the inside corner of the bottom part of the frame. (Where it has the rounde corner)

My ear height is about 39". The distance from the top of the tweeter horn to my ear is about 11 feet. (I need to get a more precise measurement of this.)

 

[Scott W]

I went to Todd's house last night and the sound was glorious. Todd commented I did not play the usual "Audiophile" music. I played Peter Gabriel, Howard Jones, The Dead South, Boston, ELO, Underworld, Air Supply, Don Henley, Devo, Toni Childs and more. I got to Todds house about 7pm and left around 11:30 when Todd sent me packing

 

[sbnx]

Here is a pic of the final system

 

[KeithR]

Sounds like an amazing journey, Todd. Congrats. Looking forward to hearing the big rig soon!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I set out well over a year ago to establish a really quiet system that was capable of great tone, expressing minute levels of dynamic shading and would possess precise timing queues. Well, the Avantgarde Trio system has finally come together. For the first time in a year I am listening to two speakers. During that year I worked to understand the general location of the main trio + Spacehorns, the general location of the Torus subs and “roughly” integrating the left speaker. I had the left speaker to a point where I could easily evaluate changes to the system. I evaluated different grounding boxes and ground cables, different interconnects, different DAC, power cables, vibration control devices and the list goes on. I feel that I have achieved my goal.

This is the most musically expressive system I have ever experienced. It doesn’t have any of the typical negative horn traits. It sounds like a “normal”, coherent speaker with dynamics (both macro and micro) that are off the scale. This system has an insane amount of resolution. There is no brightness or glare. In fact, this system can be dangerous. I can listen to extremely high SPL’s without realizing it. The sound is so clean and pure that I simply don’t realize how loud it is.

I have one pair of the dual spacehorns. The spacehorn is perfectly integrated with the main trios. The volume on the spacehorns is currently set at -11.5 (-12 is the lowest it can go) yet the bass has extreme power. The bass is also very clean and articulate. I really don’t know how else to describe it. It has to be experienced to comprehend how this feels. The spacehorn is quite the cameleon. It is able to change and adapt to the type of music. It is truly mind boggling as to the range of sounds the spacehorns are capable of. They can be very light and airy sounding on the intro to Rossini’s L’Italiana in Algeri. They can produce chest pounding craziness on EDM. They can be round and thunderous on orchestral drums. They can sound plump on upright bass.

I always heard and heard people talk about horns lack of imaging. This is simply not true with the trios. With the trios properly dialed in I have extremely precise, perfectly sized images that are spread across a wide, tall and deep soundstage. All of the members of the orchestra are properly placed and none of the musicians are wandering around during the symphony. It is very easy to hear where the first violins are sitting compared to the second violins. Very easy to place all of the members of the orchestra -- the clarinet, oboe, bassoon, cello, double bass, horns, percussion, etc. all have their place and are very solid. As far as depth this is not a problem at all. In fact there is one peace of music I listen to that has a flock of birds chirping and swirling around. These birds are well behind and outside the left speaker. No issues at all with imaging and soundstage.

The sound is very melodic, whether listening to an oboe solo, piano solo, female vocals, jazz trio, EDM. It doesn’t matter. Everything sounds like music. I think in most “books” Avantgarde horns with CH Precision and Nordost cables would be a very unlikely combination of components to produce a rich, melodic sound. But there it is right in front of me. The artistic intent is obvious. One of the concerns I initially had was “Can an extremely resolving system still produce music?”. The answer is a resounding YES!

I discussed the subwoofer placement in one of the videos. I did add a pair of WB Torus subs to supplement the trio system below 35 Hz. I found the best general area with REW and then integrated that for time alignment. What this brought to the party is what all well integrated subs bring – an even bigger sense of space and subterranean substance. A pair of PureLow would be even better!

I left my wife alone to listen to the system. She stayed in there for quite a while listening to all kinds of stuff. She normally doesn’t listen very loudly. But as time went on it was easier and easier for me to hear the music in the kitchen. The volume just kept climbing. She said she really enjoyed the soundtrack to Wicked. Here are the adjectives she used to describe the sound: melodic, quiet, crisp, clear, syncopated, precise, beautiful.

To get to this point I booked time on Stirling Trayle’s calendar. The trio is a lot of speaker to wrangle and Stirling has what I think is the best ear in the industry. As he has done speaker setup for a living for many, many years, he can very quickly hear what is wrong and knows what needs to happen to the speaker to remove the malady. We spent over 80 hours together in the past week to fully dial in the system. (I don’t mean 40 hours for him and 40 hours for me. It was over 80 hours of work). It was an awesome, fun experience that I learned a lot from. The Trio is extremely sensitive and revealing of even the smallest of movements. Many of you who have followed this thread know that I use a digital level that is accurate to 0.001 degrees. At one point we were adjusting the azimuth of the left speaker. Stirling would go over to the speaker and make a very small turn of the spike. The effect was immediately audible. We made 5 such turns and it took four turns before the level moved 0.001 degrees. Amazing. By then end we were both totally exhausted. However, the result was totally worth the effort. I can not thank @stirlingtrayle enough for running this marathon with me.

I know a lot of you really love videos. I will post a few with various types of music clips.

What an absolutely amazing journey, Todd! Thank you so much for taking us with you, step-by-step on this journey!

I am genuinely thrilled for you that you have achieved your dream room + system! Congratulations!

 

[Elliot G.]

I really love your room. Congrats and many hours of joy. That is what the trip is all about.

 

[caesar]

I set out well over a year ago to establish a really quiet system that was capable of great tone, expressing minute levels of dynamic shading and would possess precise timing queues. Well, the Avantgarde Trio system has finally come together. For the first time in a year I am listening to two speakers. During that year I worked to understand the general location of the main trio + Spacehorns, the general location of the Torus subs and “roughly” integrating the left speaker. I had the left speaker to a point where I could easily evaluate changes to the system. I evaluated different grounding boxes and ground cables, different interconnects, different DAC, power cables, vibration control devices and the list goes on. I feel that I have achieved my goal.

This is the most musically expressive system I have ever experienced. It doesn’t have any of the typical negative horn traits. It sounds like a “normal”, coherent speaker with dynamics (both macro and micro) that are off the scale. This system has an insane amount of resolution. There is no brightness or glare. In fact, this system can be dangerous. I can listen to extremely high SPL’s without realizing it. The sound is so clean and pure that I simply don’t realize how loud it is.

I have one pair of the dual spacehorns. The spacehorn is perfectly integrated with the main trios. The volume on the spacehorns is currently set at -11.5 (-12 is the lowest it can go) yet the bass has extreme power. The bass is also very clean and articulate. I really don’t know how else to describe it. It has to be experienced to comprehend how this feels. The spacehorn is quite the cameleon. It is able to change and adapt to the type of music. It is truly mind boggling as to the range of sounds the spacehorns are capable of. They can be very light and airy sounding on the intro to Rossini’s L’Italiana in Algeri. They can produce chest pounding craziness on EDM. They can be round and thunderous on orchestral drums. They can sound plump on upright bass.

I always heard and heard people talk about horns lack of imaging. This is simply not true with the trios. With the trios properly dialed in I have extremely precise, perfectly sized images that are spread across a wide, tall and deep soundstage. All of the members of the orchestra are properly placed and none of the musicians are wandering around during the symphony. It is very easy to hear where the first violins are sitting compared to the second violins. Very easy to place all of the members of the orchestra -- the clarinet, oboe, bassoon, cello, double bass, horns, percussion, etc. all have their place and are very solid. As far as depth this is not a problem at all. In fact there is one peace of music I listen to that has a flock of birds chirping and swirling around. These birds are well behind and outside the left speaker. No issues at all with imaging and soundstage.

The sound is very melodic, whether listening to an oboe solo, piano solo, female vocals, jazz trio, EDM. It doesn’t matter. Everything sounds like music. I think in most “books” Avantgarde horns with CH Precision and Nordost cables would be a very unlikely combination of components to produce a rich, melodic sound. But there it is right in front of me. The artistic intent is obvious. One of the concerns I initially had was “Can an extremely resolving system still produce music?”. The answer is a resounding YES!

I discussed the subwoofer placement in one of the videos. I did add a pair of WB Torus subs to supplement the trio system below 35 Hz. I found the best general area with REW and then integrated that for time alignment. What this brought to the party is what all well integrated subs bring – an even bigger sense of space and subterranean substance. A pair of PureLow would be even better!

I left my wife alone to listen to the system. She stayed in there for quite a while listening to all kinds of stuff. She normally doesn’t listen very loudly. But as time went on it was easier and easier for me to hear the music in the kitchen. The volume just kept climbing. She said she really enjoyed the soundtrack to Wicked. Here are the adjectives she used to describe the sound: melodic, quiet, crisp, clear, syncopated, precise, beautiful.

To get to this point I booked time on Stirling Trayle’s calendar. The trio is a lot of speaker to wrangle and Stirling has what I think is the best ear in the industry. As he has done speaker setup for a living for many, many years, he can very quickly hear what is wrong and knows what needs to happen to the speaker to remove the malady. We spent over 80 hours together in the past week to fully dial in the system. (I don’t mean 40 hours for him and 40 hours for me. It was over 80 hours of work). It was an awesome, fun experience that I learned a lot from. The Trio is extremely sensitive and revealing of even the smallest of movements. Many of you who have followed this thread know that I use a digital level that is accurate to 0.001 degrees. At one point we were adjusting the azimuth of the left speaker. Stirling would go over to the speaker and make a very small turn of the spike. The effect was immediately audible. We made 5 such turns and it took four turns before the level moved 0.001 degrees. Amazing. By then end we were both totally exhausted. However, the result was totally worth the effort. I can not thank @stirlingtrayle enough for running this marathon with me.

I know a lot of you really love videos. I will post a few with various types of music clips.

Thanks again for sharing. This is definitely one of the best threads in the history of this forum - for its positive tone and educational value - so different from the regular fair here where guys are arguing about different tastes and approaches, about experiences they never shared together (and never will), or some arrogant idiot assuming everyone should feel the same emotions from his (expensive) concoction of stereo.

I need to re-read this thread from the beginning again to get the full picture, but didn't you have Sterling Trayle at your place previously or did I misunderstand? If so, what were the goals of the first session vs this one.

Also, if possible, can you please let me know if the "Key to the Highway" track on Junior Wells Album On Tap sounds acceptable to you, especially the incredible guitar solo by Sammy Lawhorn at about 2;10 minute mark. (I talked to many guys in the blues industry there in the studio with him, and if this guy wasn't a drunk, he would definitely be considered one of the greatest guitarists.) Likewise, if your streaming service offers this, does "First Time I met the Blues" from Buddy Guy Live at Hiroshima sound? No videos necessary - just curios if one can listen to normal music on this system without the system being over-analytical and presenting normal recordings in a non-offensive way.

Many Thanks!

 

[thedudeabides]

If the sound on those videos is the sound that you are after then it shouldn’t be too hard for you to achieve that with your system. Pretty low bar Al.

As is this. Seems you missed the purpose of his prior post.

 

[thedudeabides]

I am no longer a fan of visually imposing audio systems but yours is one of the very few that I find absolutely stunning.

Question. Have you and Jacob / TAS consulted with each other on the Trios, components, etc. and had an opportunity to hear each others current system?

 

[sbo6]

I assume this is a question for me. If not, please forgive.

I do have R2R. It is in the DAC.

Seriously though. A TT is a whole different journey. I think I am too neurotic to have a TT. I would be constantly stressing if the VTA was good enough or having to adjust for each album thickness etc. Of course, I could be like Mike and have a different TT for each album thickness and that would solve the whole problem. Maybe someday. I have thought about the Grand Prix Audio Monaco. But then there is which tone arm/cartridge etc. Then there is the phono stage. For now, I am quite happy with my digital which is not even at the top of what it could be.

There's no need for multiple tables just to adjust VTA. Many tonearms have adjustable VTA, which can be adjusted / set based on LP thickness.

Also, the number of gear selection choices are pretty much the same as digital, about 5 - 6 - DAC, streamer, server, switch, clock, cables. Vinyl = table, arm, cart, phono pre, cables.

 

[sbo6]

This is slang for I did not investigate horns much but am ashamed to admit that so making up an excuse that people who have not investigated horns will relate to.

What next, digital people who convert to analogue saying before I found this TT cartridge, and phono, vinyl always sounded colored and inaccurate

I think it really depends on your experiences. Many older horns from the 70s, 80s, 90s to my ears sounded like Scott said; my experiences were - want concert - like volume but want your ears to bleed, get horns, otherwise get planars or cones. About 10 years back, I heard the JBL Everest and they were abysmal. Tinny, non - coherent however, I do recall the gear not being anything special, FWIW.

However, there are still great newer choices. For example, the Aries Cerat dealer near me had the Symphonia speakers and they weren't remotely shouty or ear -bleeding via highs. But, they're also expensive and had $$ AC tube gear backing them FWIW. Still not my cup of tea, but miles better than what I experienced in the past. YMMV.