Time spent blogging on WBF and ROI

[thedudeabides]

I oftentimes wonder what the ultimate, personal value is regarding time I spend on internet sites such as WBF.

For me, WBF is not my principal audio site but I do find it valuable (read I learn something new) from time to time.

I do admire the intelligence and expertise that members have to offer and I believe it is unique in the internet / audio landscape.

At times, I find that the discussions get so obtuse and rationally incomprehensible that I have to scratch my "going bald" head and ask why.

Other perspectives?

It might help in understanding why things go south on this forum and get fractionalized / personal when there is no need / purpose for that to occur. And it ends up being counter productive to the original discussion at hand.

And yes, I admit I have been guilty as charged from time to time.

GG

 

[rockitman]

It's the usual war between strict spec objectivists and reasonable "relevant spec" (how many watts at what load, bias scheme, s/n ect.) subjectivists..the one's that know what they like to hear, know what it takes to get there and finally...trust their ears.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I oftentimes wonder what the ultimate, personal value is regarding time I spend on internet sites such as WBF.

For me, WBF is not my principal audio site but I do find it valuable (read I learn something new) from time to time.

I do admire the intelligence and expertise that members have to offer and I believe it is unique in the internet / audio landscape.

At times, I find that the discussions get so obtuse and rationally incomprehensible that I have to scratch my "going bald" head and ask why.

Other perspectives?

It might help in understanding why things go south on this forum and get fractionalized / personal when there is no need / purpose for that to occur. And it ends up being counter productive to the original discussion at hand.

And yes, I admit I have been guilty as charged from time to time.

GG

why are a higher percentage of threads more polarized on WBF than most High End Forums? even though many times the same topics get churned over again and again with neither side almost never giving in even a little.

without judging the right or wrong of it, there are more active objectivists as a percentage on WBF than is typical on other High End audio forums I'm familiar with, and those objectivists are quite active and seem to enjoy extending discussions. some of the objectivists followed the founders to WBF from AVS, and then the founders of AVS invited some 'experts' to participate and brought that perspective here.

many times on other forums objectivists get ignored or marginalized and are simply not attracted to those forums as much, and objectivists don't intrude as often or to the same effect. I think since there are enough objectivists on WBF to have some mutual support that this results in the objectivist perspective to remain strong here. and there are quite a few people who 'go both ways' depending on the subject.

I do think that there is a healthy aspect to this issue and it does stimulate a more overall balance to the viewpoints if also causing more angst and aimless meandering and polarization in the process. I also think it puts a damper on some aspects of listening viewpoints from time to time. I have my reservations about some aspects of WBF (not wholely related to the objectivist issue) but I know making everyone happy is impossible. I recently decided to sit out for almost 6 months after getting tired of some things. I came back because it was time for me to do that.

I've said enough (and maybe too much).

 

[rockitman]

I do think that there is a healthy aspect to this issue and it does stimulate a more overall balance to the viewpoints if also causing more angst and aimless meandering and polarization in the process. I also think it puts a damper on some aspects of listening viewpoints from time to time. I have my reservations about some aspects of WBF (not wholely related to the objectivist issue) but I know making everyone happy is impossible. I recently decided to sit out for almost 6 months after getting tired of some things. I came back because it was time for me to do that.

.

+1

 

[thedudeabides]

many times on other forums objectivists get ignored or marginalized and are simply not attracted to those forums as much, and objectivists don't intrude as often or to the same effect.

Mike,

That's consistent with my experience on the "MLO" site. Can't speak to others since I don't get involved.

GG

 

[thedudeabides]

It's the usual war

Why does it have to be a "war"?

 

[Steve Williams]

The difficulty in trying to provide the ideal forum for both camps (objectivists vs subjectivists), which was our original goal when WBF was formed, is the inherent clashes between both sides as we try to eliminate any bias. This goes on everywhere and frankly it never ceases to amaze me how grown men involved in a common hobby can demonstrate such childishness in discussions with other people about their coveted gear. I get at least a half dozen complaints each day from one side or the other that are so petty that sometimes it becomes even difficult for us to moderate. Many of you need a good dose of a "grow up" pill because I find looking from outside in nothing more than a bunch of bruised egos looking for some validation and/or vindication. Over this past holiday weekend which I was enjoying with my family, I received no less than 14 reported posts by members which took time away from my family. These posts involved, cuss words, perceived threats as well as name calling and trashing members' gear. If only all of you could get a grip. This forum is just for fun guys. If any of you can provide me with a simple solution as to how to balance the scale between both sides, I am all ears. I have sent letters of warning this past weekend to members on both sides telling them I won't tolerate their crap anymore, knowing full well that the same people will again violate the TOS here at WBF. If only those of you who are doing the complaining can only see yourselves as others do, it might open your eyes.

The simple fact is that Amir and I as well as the moderators do this for free. The time I spend daily on this forum to appease those whiners here who do only that has become insufferable. If WBF does not meet your expectations, I am of the feeling now that we can't be all things to all people and if we can't meet your needs here then perhaps it is time for you to move on or better yet to start a site to your liking where only those who agree with you can play in your sand box.

Great to see how an intent at a non biased forum has resulted in the complaints by those of you who indeed have nothing but bias in your every post.

I rest my case.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The difficulty in trying to provide the ideal forum for both camps (objectivists vs subjectivists), which was our original goal when WBF was formed, is the inherent clashes between both sides as we try to eliminate any bias. This goes on everywhere and frankly it never ceases to amaze me how grown men involved in a common hobby can demonstrate such childishness in discussions with other people about their coveted gear. I get at least a half dozen complaints each day from one side or the other that are so petty that sometimes it becomes even difficult for us to moderate. Many of you need a good dose of a "grow up" pill because I find looking from outside in nothing more than a bunch of bruised egos looking for some validation and/or vindication. Over this past holiday weekend which I was enjoying with my family, I received no less than 14 reported posts by members which took time away from my family. These posts involved, cuss words, perceived threats as well as name calling and trashing members' gear. If only all of you could get a grip. This forum is just for fun guys. If any of you can provide me with a simple solution as to how to balance the scale between both sides, I am all ears. I have sent letters of warning this past weekend to members on both sides telling them I won't tolerate their crap anymore, knowing full well that the same people will again violate the TOS here at WBF. If only those of you who are doing the complaining can only see yourselves as others do, it might open your eyes.

The simple fact is that Amir and I as well as the moderators do this for free. The time I spend daily on this forum to appease those whiners here who do only that has become insufferable. If WBF does not meet your expectations, I am of the feeling now that we can't be all things to all people and if we can't meet your needs here then perhaps it is time for you to move on or better yet to start a site to your liking where only those who agree with you can play in your sand box.

Great to see how an intent at a non biased forum has resulted in the complaints by those of you who indeed have nothing but bias in your every post.

I rest my case.

i respect that this is a non-profit site, and i think that since there are not advertisers to protect that the objectivisits are given more latitude. and at the end of the day that is probably a good thing....although painfull to endure for me quite often. not to say all issues are handled in an even handed way since that is always looked at subjectively. the moderators have a tough job many times.

i typically withdraw rather than involve myself in conflict. on other sites i am almost never faced with having to make that decision.

 

[Steve Williams]

If everyone were to retreat like you Mike rather than starting conflict this would be a better place. I am simply stunned that grown men who are highly educated and quite successful can behave in such a fashion

 

[mep]

It's never going to change Steve. I'd rather take my turn in the barrel trying to solve the problem with peace in the middle east because I think I would have a greater chance of success there before you could bring peace to this forum. As Mike alluded to, some of this was predictable when you invited some of the extremely polarizing 'experts' to come have a soapbox to preach their hell, fire, and anti-high end brimstone from. And we have other people here who are devout objectivists who clearly don't believe in the high-end let alone "What's Best" and whose single purpose here seems to be poking at people who have actually invested substantial amounts of money in their room and gear.

And having said all of that, I do think this forum sunk to a new low this weekend with one member being threatened by another. And no, I didn't read it as a veiled threat either. I thought it was quite clear.

 

[thedudeabides]

Great insight Steve.

Thank you.

I must admit that the one position / opinion that bothers me the most is the "I am right and you are wrong" perspective and if somehow you don't understand why you are wrong, you are relegated to a "lower" intellectual class.

As I've said numerous times, audio and the enjoyment thereof is a very personal, subjective hobby. Absolutism, IMHO, is an oxymoron and has no place or relevance in the world of audio.

I'm sorry you had to spend your personal time this weekend "policing" the WBF rules and guidelines.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

If everyone were to retreat like you Mike rather than starting conflict this would be a better place. I am simply stunned that grown men who are highly educated and quite successful can behave in such a fashion

you might look at how many people here actually seek conflict, then feed on it continually.

are we better off for that acvtivity?

for me, i simply don't post what i would not say to someone's face. it's not that tough to do. for some a keyboard changes their spots. it can be sad.

 

[Steve Williams]

It's never going to change Steve. I'd rather take my turn in the barrel trying to solve the problem with peace in the middle east because I think I would have a greater chance of success there before you could bring peace to this forum. As Mike alluded to, some of this was predictable when you invited some of the extremely polarizing 'experts' to come have a soapbox to preach their hell, fire, and anti-high end brimstone from. And we have other people here who are devout objectivists who clearly don't believe in the high-end let alone "What's Best" and whose single purpose here seems to be poking at people who have actually invested substantial amounts of money in their room and gear.

And having said all of that, I do think this forum sunk to a new low this weekend with one member being threatened by another. And no, I didn't read it as a veiled threat either. I thought it was quite clear.

all of these past weekend issues have been addressed. Threatening a member in any fashion be it verbal or physical not only violates our TOS but so also violates all aspects of human decency

 

[JackD201]

I think that when moderators are getting equal amounts of complaints from BOTH sides, the mods are doing a good job at being neutral as opposed to acting like a board of censors.

 

[DonH50]

Guess I missed all the "fun". As one of the moderators of a trumpet forum I can attest to the passion and pain that goes along with running a forum like this, a largely thankless and yet immense task. I suspect few, myself included, realize the amount of time, effort, thought, angst and a even a little joy that goes into keeping WBF running.

I spend time at AVS, WBF, and the aforementioned trumpet forum. I have only spent time on maybe 6 - 12 audio-related forums and substantial time only on AVS and WBF (with some on Audiogon and the DIY sites, plus of course MUG -- the Magnepan User's Group). There are always a few very outspoken activists in any crowd, but from my perspective AVS is largely objectivist and WBF is largely subjectivist in the majority of day-to-day threads. At WBF, all the threads focused on the sound and not the specs (I have no problem with that, BTW, and is why I spend time here) are balanced by a number of technical threads, including a large repository of educational material I have not really seen elsewhere, and a more balanced objective/subjective mix of folk. Like any forum, a comment made in a thread without the context of face-to-face interaction is easily misinterpreted, and arguments tend to quickly escalate. Part of that is the anonymity, but I am no psychologist to say how much is individual personality and how much "human nature".

I have tried to stay out of threads where it is clear my opinion is not needed nor wanted, but of course I slip up now and then. Apologies to any and all I may have offended, but I like WBF enough and admire Steve and Amir enough to stick around despite low IQ, ears of clay, stone-age system, and "what gets by" budget.

I am watching old war movies today and appreciating those in the USA who have gotten us to the point we can have arguments like this.

God bless the USA, and enjoy the holiday. - Don

 

[Steve Williams]

Guess I missed all the "fun". As one of the moderators of a trumpet forum I can attest to the passion and pain that goes along with running a forum like this, a largely thankless and yet immense task. I suspect few, myself included, realize the amount of time, effort, thought, angst and a even a little joy that goes into keeping WBF running.

I spend time at AVS, WBF, and the aforementioned trumpet forum. I have only spent time on maybe 6 - 12 audio-related forums and substantial time only on AVS and WBF (with some on Audiogon and the DIY sites, plus of course MUG -- the Magnepan User's Group). There are always a few very outspoken activists in any crowd, but from my perspective AVS is largely objectivist and WBF is largely subjectivist in the majority of day-to-day threads. At WBF, all the threads focused on the sound and not the specs (I have no problem with that, BTW, and is why I spend time here) are balanced by a number of technical threads, including a large repository of educational material I have not really seen elsewhere, and a more balanced objective/subjective mix of folk. Like any forum, a comment made in a thread without the context of face-to-face interaction is easily misinterpreted, and arguments tend to quickly escalate. Part of that is the anonymity, but I am no psychologist to say how much is individual personality and how much "human nature".

I have tried to stay out of threads where it is clear my opinion is not needed nor wanted, but of course I slip up now and then. Apologies to any and all I may have offended, but I like WBF enough and admire Steve and Amir enough to stick around despite low IQ, ears of clay, stone-age system, and "what gets by" budget.

I am watching old war movies today and appreciating those in the USA who have gotten us to the point we can have arguments like this.

God bless the USA, and enjoy the holiday. - Don

You're a mensch Don.

Happy Memorial Day to you as well

 

[thedudeabides]

I think that when moderators are getting equal amounts of complaints from BOTH sides, the mods are doing a good job at being neutral as opposed to acting like a board of censors.

It begs the question as to why they should have to receive / address complaints in the first place.

It's almost like the "mommy - daddy" scenario where a child doesn't like the answer one parent gives and then goes to the other seeking a different response.

 

[mep]

I think that when moderators are getting equal amounts of complaints from BOTH sides, the mods are doing a good job at being neutral as opposed to acting like a board of censors.

Either that or they have a bunch of crybabies wasting their time with trivial nonsense.

 

[Mosin]

If everyone were to retreat like you Mike rather than starting conflict this would be a better place. I am simply stunned that grown men who are highly educated and quite successful can behave in such a fashion

I believe that being highly educated and quite successful can foster such behavior. Competitiveness among them is quite common, and "killer instinct" isn't always so easy to turn off.

This is an unprotected environment, and that makes it difficult for some people to drop their guard. They tend to forget that it is just a hobby.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Maybe Steve can subscribe a little bit of this