The KEF LS50 and tubes WOW WOW WOW!

[Andre Marc]

I don't have mine 10' apart, but I previously listed all of the dimensions of where they are in my room with regards to how far from the back wall, side walls, and how far from each other. I do believe mine are over 9' apart but less than 10'. As long is you don't have the "hole in the middle" issue which I don't, all is good. With regards to integrating subs, I think you are making it sound more difficult than it really is. Subs don't have to come from the same manufacturer as the main speakers in order to 'work' correctly. The subs don't have to be made from the same cone material as the main speakers in order to blend or for whatever reason you think they need to be made from the same material. At the end of the day, all that matter is that you are happy with the sound of the LS50s in your room. After hearing the incredible purity these speakers are capable of, you really can't go backwards again.

Agree, the big concern is creating a "hole" in the center. If you don't have that you are ok.

It is possible I am making it sound worse than it is. I have a friend who has the superb Proac Tablettes. He bought a stereo pair
for Proac subs. It took 6 months for him not to integrate it, and he finally bought the DSPspeaker unit. This process is not for me. I have
been to countless listening rooms where they owners spend more time "dialing" in the subs then enjoying music.

What I mention about sub integration and materials I heard from several uber speaker designers. And yes..they made subs too. A full range
or near full range speaker for me personally is the ticket. Since I don't listen to organ music, they do NOT have to go down to 16 Hz.

 

[Andre Marc]

Agreed, but 12 feet? Seems rather excessive to call that nearfield. The stage boundaries are going to open up......

As I said, I DO NOT consider 12 feet near field. I only agree with him that near field should probably entail equi-distance.

I stand by what I said..for me personally, 6 feet or closer is near field.

Near field also eliminates much of the room issues. Some, not all.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

As I said, I DO NOT consider 12 feet near field. I only agree with him that near field should probably entail equi-distance.

I stand by what I said..for me personally, 6 feet or closer is near field.

Near filed also eliminates much of the room issues. Some, not all.

Agreed! Going to a larger room myself I have noticed that. I'm working on it, and have a handle on things, but I'm not quite there yet.

 

[wisnon]

wisnon, I'm a little surprised as to what you stated about the Blades. Are you certain that something upstream was not the cause of your impression? Faint cricket noises or other minutae in the reproduction can easily be lost IF
there is something upstream that cannot resolve that. Cables, electronics, etc-- are always a factor.

It was at the Zurich show 2012. Soulution electronics. Not sure about cabling, BUT this was a primo setup and I dont expect anything would have been left to chance. Who knows though...

 

[microstrip]

Although each of us has his particular view on what is "near field listening" F. Toole defines it with great care in his book - Sound Reproduction:

NEAR-FIELD MONITORS
In recording control rooms, it is common to place small loudspeakers on the meter bridge at the rear of the recording console. These are called near-field or close-field monitors because they are not far from the listeners. As shown in Figure 18.1c, the near field of a small two-way loudspeaker (the midrange and tweeter of the example system) extends to somewhere in the range 21 in. to almost 6 ft (0.53 to 1.8 m). Including the reflection from the console under the loudspeaker greatly extends that distance. There is no doubt, then, that the recording engineer is listening in the acoustical near field, and that what is heard will depend on where the ears are located in distance, as well as laterally and in height. The propagating wavefront has not stabilized, and as a result this is not a desirable sound field in which to do precision listening, but as they say, perhaps it is “good enough for rock-and-roll.”

 

[mep]

The LS50s don't qualify as "near full-range" speakers. For example, you are missing the fundamental note from the E string on a bass guitar which is around 41 Hz and even though you don't listen to organs and 16Hz notes, I think you listen to music that has bass guitars. All you are going to get is the upper harmonics from the bass guitar. You will hear the second harmonic of the E string at 82Hz cleanly, but not the fundamental. Again, if you are relying on room boundary effect by placing the LS50s close to the rear wall of your listening room and sitting close to the speakers which means you are close to the rear wall, then you getting some bass boost from the room which may be good enough to satisfy you.

 

[microstrip]

12 feet is not near field for sure. That is about the furthest I would ever sit.

BTW, Mikey Fremer sits 8 feet away from his XLFs!

The XLF (or the X2 , MAXX3 or Alexia) has a very accurate system of adjusting the position of each unit to compensate for variations of the distance and height of the listener. Although they look imposing they completely integrate their drivers and completely disappear at 8", keeping a very reasonable sweet spot width. However I prefer to keep speaker -listener distance around 11-12" in my room.

 

[LL21]

The XLF (or the X2 , MAXX3 or Alexia) has a very accurate system of adjusting the position of each unit to compensate for variations of the distance and height of the listener. Although they look imposing they completely integrate their drivers and completely disappear at 8", keeping a very reasonable sweet spot width. However I prefer to keep speaker -listener distance around 11-12" in my room.

That is my experience as well...both at home and in at least 3 other listening rooms. I am no techie and cannot say what makes the Wilsons work for me...but I can say that after Pedro of Absolute Sounds has set up ANY pairs of Wilsons to his liking (or mine), I have found it quite a sublime experience, subject to the electronics. And I do think, according to Pedro, that has quite a lot to do with the variability of setup that Wilsons builds into its designs: not just moving the individual cones but also changing out the resistors for each cone. While they did the customization in our room, the sound really changed a LOT. It was quite remarkable to witness, and a fun learning experience.

 

[microstrip]

The LS50s don't qualify as "near full-range" speakers. (...) .

Surely. The best speaker I have ever listened in the mini-monitor class was the B&W Silver Signature SS25 - a 2 way speaker. See the frequency responses of them -
the LS50 is -10dB at 40Hz and -20dB at 30Hz, the SS25 is -10dB at 30Hz and -20dB at 18Hz (levels relative to the average 1-10 kHz plateau).

For some reason the SS25 was John Atkinson reference speaker during a few years.

 

[Andre Marc]

The LS50s don't qualify as "near full-range" speakers. For example, you are missing the fundamental note from the E string on a bass guitar which is around 41 Hz and even though you don't listen to organs and 16Hz notes, I think you listen to music that has bass guitars. All you are going to get is the upper harmonics from the bass guitar. You will hear the second harmonic of the E string at 82Hz cleanly, but not the fundamental. Again, if you are relying on room boundary effect by placing the LS50s close to the rear wall of your listening room and sitting close to the speakers which means you are close to the rear wall, then you getting some bass boost from the room which may be good enough to satisfy you.

I don't think I am communicating my point very clearly.

The KEF LS50s are certainly not full range speakers.

They will, in MY opinion, remove the need for a sub OR full range speaker under the SPECIFIC parameters I outline:
Nearfield (6 feet +/-), relatively small room (8 x 12), and with good stands.

In this particular set up you gain coherence and the "big picture". I do not compartmentalize my listening into
bass, midrange, and treble. Especially with "second systems" like in a bedroom or den, or office. These are what
I call "no stress" listening environments.

To quote John Atkinson:

"This thoroughbred both shows a clean pair of heels to the venerable LS3/5a and, within its limits of dynamic range and bass extension, will provide Class A sound for those with small rooms. Recommended. Highly."

 

[Andre Marc]

The XLF (or the X2 , MAXX3 or Alexia) has a very accurate system of adjusting the position of each unit to compensate for variations of the distance and height of the listener. Although they look imposing they completely integrate their drivers and completely disappear at 8", keeping a very reasonable sweet spot width. However I prefer to keep speaker -listener distance around 11-12" in my room.

Yes, the Wilson system is rather ingenious.

 

[mep]

I think the limits of their dynamic range and bass extension are inextricably intertwined. If you are stuck with a small room, your choices are more limited than if you can place them into a bigger room. If you pull them well away from the back wall of your room, remove the foam butt plugs, and use them with at least one pair of subs, then you can get the bass which increases your dynamic range and lets the LS50s really shine. I agree with JA with regards to the Class A rating and being highly recommended. The LS50s are great speakers and I look forward to hearing them with some tube gear.

 

[Andre Marc]

I think the limits of their dynamic range and bass extension are inextricably intertwined. If you are stuck with a small room, your choices are more limited than if you can place them into a bigger room. If you pull them well away from the back wall of your room, remove the foam butt plugs, and use them with at least one pair of subs, then you can get the bass which increases your dynamic range and lets the LS50s really shine. I agree with JA with regards to the Class A rating and being highly recommended. The LS50s are great speakers and I look forward to hearing them with some tube gear.

Again, JA gives the LS50s a Class A in a SMALL ROOM. IMO, its horses for courses. These are not big room speakers.

"...Class A sound for those with small rooms. Recommended. Highly."

 

[mep]

Again, JA gives the LS50s a Class A in a SMALL ROOM. IMO, its horses for course. These are not big room speakers.

"...Class A sound for those with small rooms. Recommended. Highly."

I guess you have to define "big room." They sound great in my room.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have never heard subs disappear, ever. That is just me. It gets close when the sub driver material is identical to the satellites.

My personal preference lead me down the path of simpler is better. and that is a directly I have been moving in continuously lately.

There are those who can't live without subs and are willing to accept the trade offs and the integration issues. I have no problem with that.

You're just running them too loud, Andre. Turn a sub down far enough and the all disappear.

Seriously, I know what you mean, but find that well-controlled subs, crossed over at the right point (good to see a plot of the roll-off of your monitors), and run at a volume level where you feel/sense the sub a bit more than you actually hear it? Works for me. YMMV. Currently, in my small room, in the near field...I don't really need a sub. I get your simplicity thing too.

Tim

 

[Andre Marc]

You're just running them too loud, Andre. Turn a sub down far enough and the all disappear.

Seriously, I know what you mean, but find that well-controlled subs, crossed over at the right point (good to see a plot of the roll-off of your monitors), and run at a volume level where you feel/sense the sub a bit more than you actually hear it? Works for me. YMMV. Currently, in my small room, in the near field...I don't really need a sub. I get your simplicity thing too.

Tim

Indeed. There are no absolutes. I emphasized that subs don't work for me, but I do not feel that subs are never beneficial.

Certainly they can be integrated to most tastes. I just have not been able to do it over the years. K>I>S>S!

 

[mep]

I think a big part of the magic of the LS50s is how small the enclosures are. The enclosures simply aren't big enough to lend the typical box sound that you get with conventional box speakers, especially conventional floor-standing box speakers. When you add all of the internal bracing, dampening, and that way-cool curved baffle with the Uni-Q driver, you just end up with a very special speaker that has no box sound IMO and the enclosure just gets out of the way of the music. I can't help but think that the Blade speaker has to be compromised in comparison to the LS50 with regards to enclosure noise and the LS50 should have an advantage in the purity department. Of course I would love to hear the Blade in my room, but in the meantime I'm going to be real happy with the combo of LS50s and four subs that have a total of four 14" woofers and the seamless soundstage and full range response the system provides.

 

[Andre Marc]

Neal Gader, TAS:

"The LS50 is tuned for smaller rooms and is meant to take advantage of the room gain that can give mid- bass response a boost.

 

[Andre Marc]

Doug Shchneider, Soundstage:

"Yes, certainly, with a coaxial driver in a small cabinet, these are ideal for nearfield listening;"

 

[mep]

Neal Gader, TAS:

"The LS50 is tuned for smaller rooms and is meant to take advantage of the room gain that can give mid- bass response a boost.

It's tuned for smaller rooms if you install the foam butt plugs and shove them up against the rear wall. If you have a bigger room, read the KEF instructions and don't install the foam butt plugs and move the speakers out from the rear wall. My LS50s are 82" from the rear wall. Trust me, it works. If all you have is a small room to listen to them with and no subs (or you don't like subs so you have no subs), it really doesn't matter. In that case you just install the foam butt plugs, shove the speakers up against the rear wall and listen to the room gain bass boost coming from your walls if that makes your socks roll up and down. People like you are doing just that and loving the sound which is all that matters.