"The increasing importance of the smaller difference" v Law Of Diminishing Returns

spiritofmusic

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A bit of an old chestnut here, but maybe a fresh look at an old discussion.
The quote in my title I just picked up at the end of the Absolute Sounds review of the Magico Q7 Mk2.
And the tension between the two statements in my thread title sums up people's continued spending habits and decisions for choices.

So, for the guys who have been spending big over the years, buying ever more expensive components, moving up to pricier models in the line, how are you balancing this tension?
For me, until about 5 years ago, all I looked at was what more pricey component I might move to, and how I could afford it.
Then on a couple of occasions the jump wasn't that stellar, so much so that within 6 weeks I had got bored w/it, and in effect despondent that my cash had been wasted.

I realised at that point that just going up in the product line, or looking for the next new thing was wrong.
So, I really thought about my system, and worked out what I really liked about it, where it fell short, and started looking for options that would enhance the goodness, and address the deficiencies, but maintaining my signature sound. But w/out the drive to go big or expensive changes unecessarily.

And so this led to me diverting my spending into ancilliaries, not new components. First I addressed power in one go w/a balanced transformer, and for a third of the price of a power amp upgrade, I got an overall upstick w/no downside, vitally keeping my tonal character intact.
Next came cables, which kept things ticking along. The same w/grounding, and isolation, and now judicious room treatments.

Now, in the middle of this I did make one major left field change, going SS to tubes, and second upgrade in, all my boxes are being ticked. But this was a kind of radical change of journey rather than faffing around at the margins but spending big.

I realise the skeptical out there will look at my admittedly pricey ancilliaries spend as no different from big components change, but I guess what I'm saying is that going upgrades to boxes all the time would have been twice or three times as pricey, and fraught w/getting it more and more wrong. At a show ten yrs ago, I met an audiofool who was in a constant state of anxiety, spending more and more on boxes, w/less and less positive outcomes.

Getting back to my title, I'm hoping the changes I've made to max out the basic character of my system get past the law of diminishing returns, and certainly boost the increasing importance of the smaller difference.
Eg Entreq grounding has just educated me that the reproduction of spatial and tonal cues that were a lot more masked before I installed it, disproportionately enhance my enjoyment.
When I started in audio, it was all about "how loud can I go?", "how deep can the bass go?". Now it's about, "can I reveal more reverb?", "can the tone be fleshed more?", etc etc.
For my friends listening to the system, probably the law of diminishing systems kicked in a long time ago when they roll their eyes hearing about my spending, but when they get into the music and say it's more involving than ever, w/out going "more bass, more volume", I know that I'm getting this tension in my thread mainly right.

Right, over to you all...
 
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bonzo75

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For my friends listening to the system, probably the law of diminishing systems kicked in a long time ago when they roll their eyes hearing about my spending, but when they get into the music and say it's more involving than ever, w/out going "more bass, more volume", I know that I'm getting this tension in my thread mainly right.

Right, enough boasting as to how I've found the secret, over to you all...


:)
 

spiritofmusic

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Ah, the inscrutable emoticon.
Bonzo, audio is a personal journey. You hate the spkrs I love, I hate the spkrs you love.
I feel this tension in my thread is nicely balanced in my sound. In my personal case.
Whether you hate my sound is immaterial TO THIS THREAD.
The relevant thing would be if I hated it too, and kept spending big.
This is not really aimed at you, it's aimed at these people like me who have been upgrading for years, how do they balance the tension I have highlighted.
You have been fiendishly clever in investing cash in travelling to numerous dealers and individuals, hearing what is being achieved, finding what you like unequivocably like, what you dislike, and hence will distill a perfect system in one go w/minimal upgrading.
Maybe when you've paid your dues making a few mistakes along the way, you'll know what I'm trying to get at.
 
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bonzo75

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Phelonious Ponk

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I'm one of those skeptics, but never mind that, congratulations on finding your bliss.

Tim
 

spiritofmusic

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Tim, what are you a skeptic about?
This is not a thread about me finding a good sound, it's really where the incessant desire to find that last 1% becomes more and more expensive choices that don't fulfil, and how much upgrading is after an elusive target.
I'm going to edit my own post because it looks like I'm a little full of myself. Not the intention.
 

bonzo75

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Tim, what are you a skeptic about?
This is not a thread about me finding a good sound, it's really where the incessant desire to find that last 1% becomes more and more expensive choices that don't fulfil, and how much upgrading is after an elusive target.
I'm going to edit my own post because it looks like I'm a little full of myself. Not the intention.

Maybe he was skeptical because you had this thread a month ago where you said you will step off from major upgrading http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ajor-upgrading&p=338756&viewfull=1#post338756

Only to come back with Tape deck (which is a good thing, seriously), and then now you have this thread, so all eager to see what we have over the next couple of months
 

spiritofmusic

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Oh, tape is a parallel dimension option, I'm getting pain sitting on the fence. Tape is a love letter to analog. Not part of this discussion. This thread is for others to talk, not about me so much.
 

microstrip

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People should be aware that "the smaller difference", as used by R.Hartley, is a different concept from the "small difference" as commonly used in high end wording to address differences we can not (yet:) ) measure and correlate with perceived sound quality.
 

DaveC

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Well, power and cables are the backbone of a system and if they aren't performing well an otherwise good system may not get past being mediocre. Room acoustics are a defining factor and bad acoustics will make the best system sound horrible even if all the other details are done properly.

It's a system and every part of it makes a difference, upgrade paths need to take this into account so it can be done in the best way possible. IMO, cables, power and room acoustics are basics that should be handled from the get-go. If you don't have clean power you'll lean towards components that ease the harshness caused by emi/rfi contaminated power and if you have cables that are too warm or too bright you'll choose components to compensate. The problem with cables or components that are not neutral is they sacrifice resolution and force you to adjust other parts of the system to balance their character. A perfectly neutral component has "synergy" with any other neutral component and fits into most systems very well while a component that has some sort of definable character to the sound needs a corresponding balance is not a good fit in nearly as many systems vs a neutral component.

The better and more balanced a system becomes the more small differences matter, but it's up to the individual how far down the path of diminishing returns one wants to go.
 

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caesar

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Spirit,

We've discussed this before. Here's one, very good way of thinking about it, using psychology and economics models:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-on-investment&p=251752&viewfull=1#post251752

If you are not jumping technologies and are only on the original S Curves, and as you reach the plateau of that curve, things get pretty expensive. Obviously, most people wouldn't pay crazy dollars for the best cable before securing their ultimate speaker for their room. But for those who truly are on that plateau, being locked into their real estate, and have acquired their ultimate speaker for that room, along with amps and source, they are the audiophile in the proverbial desert without water. They would be willing to pay a lot for that drink while lost in the Sahara (bliss and ecstasy), yet upon being rescued, that bottle of water is worth only pennies (source of wetness).

Good Luck!
 

spiritofmusic

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Caesar, interesting stuff. There's no doubt that the combination of available income, interest in a high worth hobby, and tendency to ocd, combine badly in high end audio. As they probably do in cars, watches, golf etc etc.
For me, an interesting point was about 5 years ago when in quick succession I bought two components that I was self driven twds buying, because they wewre next up in the line, were twice a s expensive, promised a lot, and hey ho, my mentality was just to go more pricey boxes all the time. I was in my maximum gearhead mindset at the time.
A case in point was a Transfiguration Orpheus cart purchase in 2010, that pretty much wiped out my bank account. Good at the demo, but I sure as Hell wasn't going to turn it down, since it MUST give me more pleasure than words can say. By definition, since it was 2x as expensive as my current cart, and top of the line.
Three months into ownership, I couldn't work out what all the fuss was. Two years later, when my stylus was worn and it was time for the ubiquittous cart change, I thought FOR THE FIRST TIME "you know what, no, let's look at cheaper options that will give me something different, I'm paying out more and more for less dramatic impvts, maybe something altogether more modest will float my boat". And I slashed my budget by 80% to go Zu Denon 103. After criticism from my audiofool friends of the time I was slumming it, I had the last laugh, 'cause they came over more frequently than ever to partake in my sound.
Now, the Zu had issues, and in the long run I wanted a lot more refinement (the ONLY disadvantage over the 5x pricier Transfiguration), and for the cost of a new Zu 103 which was needed three years ago, and the funds from selling my phono stage, I was able to invest direct into a new Soundsmith Straingauge at a not greater financial outlay than the cost of a new Zu 103 (so in effect breaking even). And now all my boxes are ticked, w/the added bonus that l/t membership is so much cheaper than traditional carts ($750 every two to three yrs just to replace stylii).
Re the smaller difference/diminishing returns tension, minor investment in a battery psu has led to major performance upstick, and I think I have the tension btwn these two polarities just about right in this particular case.
 
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Al M.

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Thanks for that! I thoroughly enjoying reading this.

Yes, that is a great article.

By the way, I have a comment in the "Letters" section (Al Moritz).

_______________

[I say there, 15 years ago, that my "system does not reproduce deep bass and its sound picture is not large". In the meantime I have a subwoofer (actually bought later that year, in 2000), and in my new, larger room with extensive acoustic treatment I do get a large soundstage. I still have the same power conditioner, amps and speakers though, even though the amps have been modified now and supplemented with external power supplies, a very substantial upgrade).]
 

spiritofmusic

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Great article Blue58, and very relevant.
One of the reasons why I'm so glad that I: 1-stuck w/vinyl, 2-have migrated to SETs, and 3-got into my Zu skrs' house sound of seamless, holistic and tonally dense presentation, is that I've just moved on from the whole microscopic detail-searching, audiofool checklist-ticking exercise, and getting a musical "experience" that just fires my endorphins all the time. I like to enhance and refine over time, but I'd rather shut up shop and watch the X Factor w/Simon Cowell instead if I went back to SS, had to rely on Hi Rez, and were lumbered w/so called SOTA Magicos or Wilsons etc - no criticism intended to those people who love this gear, and my house sound is not for everyone, but the author of this article really hits the nail on the head re lack of engagement w/so many expensive and complex rigs.
 

Al M.

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Great article Blue58, and very relevant.
I've just moved on from the whole microscopic detail-searching, audiofool checklist-ticking exercise, and getting a musical "experience" that just fires my endorphins all the time.

Precisely. My emotional engagement needs to be on all the time as well. Get the basics right, the life of the music, and everything else is secondary.

I'd rather shut up shop and watch the X Factor w/Simon Cowell instead if I went back to SS, had to rely on Hi Rez, and were lumbered w/so called SOTA Magicos or Wilsons etc - no criticism intended to those people who love this gear, and my house sound is not for everyone, but the author of this article really hits the nail on the head re lack of engagement w/so many expensive and complex rigs.

The SOTA Magico M Project (in Madfloyd's system) is the best speaker that I have heard and it checks all the musical engagement boxes. So do the Magico Mini IIs in Peter A.'s system. So if you have heard Magico sound that left you cold, very well likely given all the bad set-ups that one gets to hear, then please don't believe that this is 'how Magico sounds'. It's not, at least not under optimal circumstances.
 

spiritofmusic

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Actually, I've just heard the S7's at the recent Windsor show, w/Constellation amps, and it was the first time I quite liked the sound. I have a real aversion to many if not all SS amps, and the overall effect felt a little overdamped, but there was power lurking beneath the surface.
I do find so many high Wattage/box spkr combinations just don't allow music to breathe and are overly forensic, but that's for another thread. I only mentioned Magico as a typical example of the genre.
Maybe I might switch Simon Cowell off if the S7's were here LOL
 

PeterA

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Precisely. My emotional engagement needs to be on all the time as well. Get the basics right, the life of the music, and everything else is secondary.



The SOTA Magico M Project (in Madfloyd's system) is the best speaker that I have heard and it checks all the musical engagement boxes. So do the Magico Mini IIs in Peter A.'s system. So if you have heard Magico sound that left you cold, very well likely given all the bad set-ups that one gets to hear, then please don't believe that this is 'how Magico sounds'. It's not, at least not under optimal circumstances.

Emotional engagement is what it is all about. IMHO, The M Project and Mini II will be classic speakers for years to come. There is nothing harsh or sterile about them. If they are driven by great amps, like the Pass Class A monoblocks, and in a properly set up room and system, then the sound can be very natural and convincing. The system will disappear and the music will be there in all of its glory for the listener.

Whether one views changes as small differences with increasing importance or diminishing returns is a very personal thing. It depends entirely on the individual and his priorities. I have experienced both in my system. Understanding the distinction can be very helpful, even critical, to enjoying the hobby and making meaningful improvements to one's system. It is an interesting topic, but I think a very personal one.
 

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