The Colibri “Master Signature”

[bonzo75]

You should include this Mahlerwhen you audition a system It will tell if a system can do grand can do depth can do hall ambient can cover full range with no sameness.

Btw I was saying the piece by Mehta is good not bragging my system.

IIrc you had posted another Mahler 3 video before. Was that Bruno Walter?

It seemed like a better one. That was over a year ago so tough to know exactly, but if you could post that as well?

 

[Ron Resnick]

That is wonderful that your cartridge came back as an RRRRR, Tim! Enjoy it!

 

[Solypsa]

That is wonderful that your cartridge came back as an RRRRR, Tim! Enjoy it!

I think it ia 'brave' of VdH to both tweak his carts after sale and even grade them. Of course variation is to be expected and second chances can yield improvement ( think of how long we sometimes work to make our systems sing ) but it also exposes us to the reality of sample variation. As I say a brave move to deal with this reality openly.

 

[tima]

I think it ia 'brave' of VdH to both tweak his carts after sale and even grade them. Of course variation is to be expected and second chances can yield improvement ( think of how long we sometimes work to make our systems sing ) but it also exposes us to the reality of sample variation. As I say a brave move to deal with this reality openly.

Yes, brave . . . and generous.

That is wonderful that your cartridge came back as an RRRRR, Tim! Enjoy it!

Thank you, Ron.

Congratulations Tim. IMO, these cartridges are all about what ddk refers to as “natural resolution”. Have you made any changes to your system during the time the cartridge was away? I would think as a reviewer, you would find this cartridge invaluable. These cartridges look like accidents but sound magical.

Indeed they do. It is happy as a clam when run through the Lamm. That would be the LP1's moving magnet input.

I'm trying out a few wires and yes, you are right - although it is at the signal creation start of things, it will tell you about what is upstream. And it plays wonderful. The patented van den Hul stylus really can read a groove.

 

[PeterA]

I think it ia 'brave' of VdH to both tweak his carts after sale and even grade them. Of course variation is to be expected and second chances can yield improvement ( think of how long we sometimes work to make our systems sing ) but it also exposes us to the reality of sample variation. As I say a brave move to deal with this reality openly.

I think AJ loves his craft and wants to assure his customers are happy. He is an artist, and there will surely be sample to sample variation. I have two mounted on two SME 3012Rs, and regardless of my attempts to make them sound the same via set up parameters, they just sound slightly different. I wish I had more than two.

 

[Solypsa]

I wish I had more than two.

what a lovely response to sample variation. ( not joking )

 

[PeterA]

what a lovely response to sample variation. ( not joking )

thank you. The resolution remains off the charts with both of these cartridges. The difference is that one sounds very slightly more nuanced and the other has slightly more emphasis on low frequency.

 

[Tango]

Yes, brave . . . and generous.



Thank you, Ron.



Indeed they do. It is happy as a clam when run through the Lamm. That would be the LP1's moving magnet input.

I'm trying out a few wires and yes, you are right - although it is at the signal creation start of things, it will tell you about what is upstream. And it plays wonderful. The patented van den Hul stylus really can read a groove.

Interesting you stick with the MS and have yours reconditioned to 5R. You are not interested in Gran Cru given all the rave? I on contrary sent one of my MS to recondition but Mr.Van den hul decided to convert it to Gran Cru for me. I have a5R MS too. Overall it has the same "vdh" character as Grand Cru but the tone less meaty. The presentation is less "prepared for the show." And slightly higher resolution and nuances than the Gran Cru. Put the hifi check point aside, what I find most important is how the 5R present sound so humbly effortlessly believable. Many people seem to find the MS tip-up and think it attract listener with hyper detail and nuances in the high. If I hear like that it would probably draw my attention to sound not music. I would describe my 5R as a cart that when I listen to it makes me "watch" ... squeeze my eyes to follow how Heifetz would move his bow. "Watch" what he is going to do next and smile. If anyone have this kind of reaction to sound in front of him I don't think he no longer paying any attention to good sound but just enjoy the performance. This is what this cart can do more than other carts I had experience with..more than the Gran Cru. Minor difference in tone and other things become insignificant. It is as if Horowitz played two different pianos with different sound you gonna enjoy and follow his performance anyway and not paying attention to different sound of piano. Tonally 100% correct or not is not only up to the cart but to the sound of the whole system too. I don't think that "to be believable" everything has to be a 100% accurate. What is correct anyway when two violin of different makes (or even the same make) don't even sound the same. I also enjoy the Gran Cru very much. It seems to be made for jazz and vocal. Unfortunately your tt does not allow two arms. With two arms you have flexibility to match music and can easily hear differences in carts. For this kind of sound and other great carts pricing at more than 12,000 dollars, the VdH is cheap. Service is great. Cost to recondition is super low. Bang for the bucks.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Oh yes - Mahler's 3rd is fantastic. Some critics say it is his best. Kubelik, Mehta, Solti, both Bernsteins, here's another:

Jascha Horenstein with the LSO
View attachment 83827
Nonesuch HB 73023

There is another from him: Unicorn RHS 302-303 that may be is easier to find. I don't have them in front of me and canna remember if they are the same performance - highly likely but not certain.

cant tell you how many times i have held this in my hands and set it back down and not purchased it, due only to my lack of knowledge of classical music.

 

[tima]

Interesting you stick with the MS and have yours reconditioned to 5R. You are not interested in Gran Cru given all the rave? I on contrary sent one of my MS to recondition but Mr.Van den hul decided to convert it to Gran Cru for me. I have a5R MS too. Overall it has the same "vdh" character as Grand Cru but the tone less meaty. The presentation is less "prepared for the show." And slightly higher resolution and nuances than the Gran Cru. Put the hifi check point aside, what I find most important is how the 5R present sound so humbly effortlessly believable. Many people seem to find the MS tip-up and think it attract listener with hyper detail and nuances in the high. If I hear like that it would probably draw my attention to sound not music. I would describe my 5R as a cart that when I listen to it makes me "watch" ... squeeze my eyes to follow how Heifetz would move his bow. "Watch" what he is going to do next and smile. If anyone have this kind of reaction to sound in front of him I don't think he no longer paying any attention to good sound but just enjoy the performance. This is what this cart can do more than other carts I had experience with..more than the Gran Cru. Minor difference in tone and other things become insignificant. It is as if Horowitz played two different pianos with different sound you gonna enjoy and follow his performance anyway and not paying attention to different sound of piano. Tonally 100% correct or not is not only up to the cart but to the sound of the whole system too. I don't think that "to be believable" everything has to be a 100% accurate. What is correct anyway when two violin of different makes (or even the same make) don't even sound the same. I also enjoy the Gran Cru very much. It seems to be made for jazz and vocal. Unfortunately your tt does not allow two arms. With two arms you have flexibility to match music and can easily hear differences in carts. For this kind of sound and other great carts pricing at more than 12,000 dollars, the VdH is cheap. Service is great. Cost to recondition is super low. Bang for the bucks.

I thank you for taking the time to write that introspective follow-up, Tango, and sharing your observations on both vdH cartridges. This is part of the beauty of experiencing music where our relationship to it is truly personal. There is, at least for me, a kind of tipping point between our analytic listening mind and our limbic experience (wholly occupied with or entirely loosing oneself in the music) where both are very close at moments, where we can be less concious of sounds characters while aware of having the experience. We can, as you say, just enjoy the performance.

I knew, or at least thought I knew, the potential of the Master Sig and wanted to know that fulfilled rather than seek an upgrade. I have another MS that was modified to run on my Tri-Planar arm and it has very few hours on it. When I finally acquire a 3012R, I will use that cartridge on it and maybe when it is time for its visit to Holland I will think about upgrading it to Gran Cru. I appreciate your comments on the distinctions between both cartridges. I like to keep my system fairly constant; change comes when other gears arrive to write about. I am still marveling at all Lamm electronics. Other change will come with speakers. I keep my other arm mounted on its armboard and it is very easy to change the armboard on my tt because of precision fit and no readjustment, but you are right, having two arms would allow to match arm/cart character with music. Maybe I should get a second Monaco.

I agree, the MS does bring an easy, effortless presentation. It does not stand on a stage looking for bows, saying 'look what i can do'. Yes, it offers detail if you are attracted to that, but not at the expense of something else. For me detail sometimes means being able to follow other instruments and sections during a time when a solo or main theme is featured. My focus moves wide and narrow.

As David says, balance and proportion - that allows the music to be itself. Same with high frequency energy; it is there in real life but again as part of a whole. Easy and effortless with vivacity and joy.The MS delivers that same energy in lower registers. Musicians do not want to screech; if you hear an awkward high trumpet sound you know it is in your system and not from the performance. MS never makes good musicians look bad.

I am happy to hear you mention Horowitz.

 

[tima]

cant tell you how many times i have held this in my hands and set it back down and not purchased it, due only to my lack of knowledge of classical music.

There are many great Mahler performances and a few conductors who consistently offer a coherent reading. We each have our favorites. Recording quality is also a factor. Feel welcome to visit and contribute to the Mahler thread listed in my signature.

 

[Ron Resnick]

There is, at least for me, a kind of tipping point between our analytic listening mind and our limbic experience (wholly occupied with or entirely loosing oneself in the music) where both are very close at moments, where we can be less concious of sounds characters while aware of having the experience.

I think this is an interesting point worthy of further exploration. I don't want to derail this cartridge specific thread, but if you felt like exploring this theory in a new thread I think we might be able to make new progress in understanding our hobby.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting you stick with the MS and have yours reconditioned to 5R. You are not interested in Gran Cru given all the rave? I on contrary sent one of my MS to recondition but Mr.Van den hul decided to convert it to Gran Cru for me. I have a5R MS too. Overall it has the same "vdh" character as Grand Cru but the tone less meaty. The presentation is less "prepared for the show." And slightly higher resolution and nuances than the Gran Cru. Put the hifi check point aside, what I find most important is how the 5R present sound so humbly effortlessly believable. Many people seem to find the MS tip-up and think it attract listener with hyper detail and nuances in the high. If I hear like that it would probably draw my attention to sound not music. I would describe my 5R as a cart that when I listen to it makes me "watch" ... squeeze my eyes to follow how Heifetz would move his bow. "Watch" what he is going to do next and smile. If anyone have this kind of reaction to sound in front of him I don't think he no longer paying any attention to good sound but just enjoy the performance. This is what this cart can do more than other carts I had experience with..more than the Gran Cru. Minor difference in tone and other things become insignificant. It is as if Horowitz played two different pianos with different sound you gonna enjoy and follow his performance anyway and not paying attention to different sound of piano. Tonally 100% correct or not is not only up to the cart but to the sound of the whole system too. I don't think that "to be believable" everything has to be a 100% accurate. What is correct anyway when two violin of different makes (or even the same make) don't even sound the same. I also enjoy the Gran Cru very much. It seems to be made for jazz and vocal. Unfortunately your tt does not allow two arms. With two arms you have flexibility to match music and can easily hear differences in carts. For this kind of sound and other great carts pricing at more than 12,000 dollars, the VdH is cheap. Service is great. Cost to recondition is super low. Bang for the bucks.

Great post, Tango. Threads get more interesting when you and Tim offer your thoughts.

I just rechecked my two vdH Colibris. At one time they were both Master Signatures. I had them modified to Grand Cru status. This involved at the time different suspensions and magnets, and perhaps some other stuff, as far as I could tell. Each cartridge has been back to Mr. van den Hul three or four times, I've lost track. I had the outputs lowered from 1.1 mV to 0.75 mV, then to 0.25 - 0.3. I had the first GC in the US. The GC was a clear step up in my former less efficient Magico/Pass/SME system. But that system also was less resolving and my tastes were different. At that time, I preferred the GC because of what I now realize was a slight enhancement at the frequency extremes. I did not recognize that at the time with that system, but it became obvious in my current system.

When I got my new system that is much more efficient, the 0.75 output was too much, so I sent both cartridges back for another inspection and lowering of output. My original modified MS to GC came back at 0.25 output, but the "GC" was no longer painted on the front of the wooden body. I think he returned it to MS status, or simply gave me a new cartridge. The magnet was different, everything seemed different. It sounded glorious, especially after set up by ddk. My other GC is a "5R" or RRRRR over the signature. It was always a full, unmodified Grand Cru. It's output has also been lowered this time to 0.3mV. It still has the "GC" painted in gold on the wood body.

I now think I have one MS and one GC. The differences are as you, Tango, describe them in your beautifully descriptive post. In my system, the differences are subtle, and the GC only has about 15 hours on it, but it does sound slightly different. It is not as nuanced as the MS, and the bass is somewhat more robust, but I think it is just a bit more extended or full at bottom. The resolution is all there, and I go back and forth not really having a preference. They are just slightly different and both sound superb.

I am thinking that I will set up the GC for jazz reissues and thicker vinyl on the back arm, and use the MS on the front arm for standard vinyl jazz, classical, and choral early/original pressings. One day I may get an Ortofon SPU mono for my few mono recordings, but until then, I am enjoying the very subtle differences between these two highly resolving cartridges. Mounted on the SME 3012R, they present "natural resolution" better than any cartridges I have heard in both my former and current system.

 

[cuntigh]

I also have a GC because of reading your report Peter.
Very happy with it, but haven’t compared to the non GC Colibri. Mine is the 0,75 output imagined for it by the Master AJ. I didn’t asked him to make it different (only to turn it to classical music and SME 3012-R’ caracteristics).
I just thought that if M. Van den Hul made it with 0,75 output it was the best way to do. I don’t doubt you made for the better, but I’m curious what did the lower output bring in sound quality.

 

[bonzo75]

I also have a GC because of reading your report Peter.
Very happy with it, but haven’t compared to the non GC Colibri. Mine is the 0,75 output imagined for it by the Master AJ. I didn’t asked him to make it different (only to turn it to classical music and SME 3012-R’ caracteristics).
I just thought that if M. Van den Hul made it with 0,75 output it was the best way to do. I don’t doubt you made for the better, but I’m curious what did the lower output bring in sound quality.

GCs have much lower impedance for the same output than the MS, so the match to phono will also play a role

 

[Tango]

I also have a GC because of reading your report Peter.
Very happy with it, but haven’t compared to the non GC Colibri. Mine is the 0,75 output imagined for it by the Master AJ. I didn’t asked him to make it different (only to turn it to classical music and SME 3012-R’ caracteristics).
I just thought that if M. Van den Hul made it with 0,75 output it was the best way to do. I don’t doubt you made for the better, but I’m curious what did the lower output bring in sound quality.

I have experienced many vdh MS from ~0.3 mV to ~1mV. Ddk and I have the same opinion which is they were non significant to our system. I am using EMT phono. He is using Lamm phono. The 5R MS I am enjoying is 0.3mV. It sounds a little more refined than my other MS's with higher output. But to tell you the truth my very first MS I picked randomly from the first batch of MS that ddk received from Mr.VDH was the one that I think have the best tone. It had the output of 0.7 or 0.9 mV I don't remember. That one was one that Bonzo was listening in my system. I don't think you need to be very picky with the output to get excellent performance from this cart.

 

[PeterA]

The issue of the output in my system is very specific. The reason for that is that my speakers are 105 dB efficient without the room gain from the corner horn. They are also 16 on loads extremely easy to drive. My old system was the opposite. The 1.1 or even the 0.75 mV Output was far too high for my system. This resulted in a “shouty” sound without nuance and I could only use three or four clicks on my volume knob.

With the .25 output, my volume knob is between nine and 10 o’clock and sometimes 1130 when I really want to play super loud. The low output makes the system much more usable and it results in better sound in my case.

Unlike Tim, I never tried the 1.1 output in my moving magnet input. That would’ve been interesting.

The result now is a cartridge which presents extreme amounts of resolution and energy throughout the whole frequency spectrum While retaining a very natural nuanced and balanced presentation. There is no spotlighting or enhancement of particular frequencies. I cannot describe these cartridges as warm or thin or cool or any other typical adjectives are used to describe most other cartridges in terms of emphasis or tonal balance or overall character. What comes through is natural resolution.

 

[mtemur]

High priced cartridges are handmade and definitely all of them vary in terms of sound signature even if they are the exact same model. Maybe VDH cartridges vary more compared to other brands that depend more on measuring equipment.

Two factors mostly effect output of a mc cartridge.
- number of turns in coil. more turns give higher output and higher impedance
- type of magnet. Ex. Samarium cobalt stronger than alnico and gives higher output without changing impedance.

Lowering output from 1.1mV to 0.25mV can either be made by decreasing the number of turns or changing the magnet. Alnico’s character in mc cartridges usually considered as effortless. Lowering the turns in coil also decreases moving mass. I mean either way lowering output from 1.1 to 0.25mV probably result as a better cartridge, but that’s just technical aspect. We don’t know what the designer has in mind and what he achieved by deciding on 1.1mV output. Maybe it has to be 1.1mV to be right.

 

[ddk]

I have experienced many vdh MS from ~0.3 mV to ~1mV. Ddk and I have the same opinion which is they were non significant to our system. I am using EMT phono. He is using Lamm phono. The 5R MS I am enjoying is 0.3mV. It sounds a little more refined than my other MS's with higher output. But to tell you the truth my very first MS I picked randomly from the first batch of MS that ddk received from Mr.VDH was the one that I think have the best tone. It had the output of 0.7 or 0.9 mV I don't remember. That one was one that Bonzo was listening in my system. I don't think you need to be very picky with the output to get excellent performance from this cart.

IME experience there's a range within Mr. vdH's Colibri cartridges irrespective of their model designation, GC, 5R etc. don't really define anything it's really the individual cartridge that matters. Also as you mentioned the outputs don't matter much. I test and listen to every cartridge that I ship and I've heard many different qualities in each generation, while they all come from the same artist each batch has been somewhat different and people like you who've owned different generations have their favorites. This is how products evolve other brands give their later generations of the same design new names Mr. vdH alters the designation at times.

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hello Peter,

"When I got my new system that is much more efficient, the 0.75 output was too much . . ."

Was this about the more efficient loudspeakers, or more about optimizing compatibility of the cartridge output with the new Lamm phono stage?