Testing and embracing Stacore

[microstrip]

(...) Then there's a more in depth whitepaper here: http://www.herzan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/White-Paper-A-dynamic-antivibration-system.pdf

Thanks - fig. 4 illustrates one of my points. But we should consider that the Hertzan (and other active modern tables) are much more sophisticated and complex than illustrated in this article, using digital signal processing to analyze signals from several sensors placed in different places and conditions.

 

[Stacore]

I will not go more into the discussion of the active, esp. with another manufacturer, which would be inappropriate.
Please ask Marc, adyc, flyer what happens if the equipment is tightly coupled to our platforms, meaning they interact with the case vibrations.

Cheers
Jarek

 

[Taiko Audio]

I will not go more into the discussion of the active, esp. with another manufacturer, which would be inappropriate.
Please ask Marc, adyc, flyer what happens if the equipment is tightly coupled to our platforms, meaning they interact with the case vibrations.

Cheers
Jarek

This discussion is spanning across 4 seperate threads that I’m aware of now. These threads purposes seem more geared towards listening impressions. Maybe it’s a good idea to start a seperate thread strictly discussing the technical differences between all the possible variations leaving the other threads to focus on their original intent?

 

[microstrip]

I will not go more into the discussion of the active, esp. with another manufacturer, which would be inappropriate.
Please ask Marc, adyc, flyer what happens if the equipment is tightly coupled to our platforms, meaning they interact with the case vibrations.

Cheers
Jarek

Surely they interact - the subject seemed interesting to me just because they interact differently!

Should I remember that the only reason we are talking about technical aspects is because in post 17 spiritofmusic introduced active tables in this thread, trying to establish a rule of use I believe is not correct? WBF since its start was a forum where we could debate technical aspects, as long we did not use them just to denigrate or rank the subjective performance of equipment.

BTW, I understand and accept when designers and manufacturers do not want to enter technical debates to protect their intellectual property - but IMHO in such case they should clear say so.

 

[PeterA]

I will not go more into the discussion of the active, esp. with another manufacturer, which would be inappropriate.
Please ask Marc, adyc, flyer what happens if the equipment is tightly coupled to our platforms, meaning they interact with the case vibrations.

Cheers
Jarek

Is this not just a case of footers being transmission devices and not isolating devices? "Tightly coupled" would seem to be something like a ball/cup or spike which transmits the component's case or internal vibrations down to the supporting platform. If that platform has enough mass, the vibrations will effectively be lessoned in the component and sound should improve. If the footers are the typical rubber, then case and internal vibrations are trapped at the case and do not exit. The difficulty would seem to be this: do rubber footers provide a net gain because it sounds better if floor borne vibrations of particular frequency are kept out of the component though other internal vibrations are kept in, or is there a net overall sonic gain if vibrations have an escape path and leave the component?

It seems to me that providing both an exit path by tightly coupling the component AND isolating it from external vibrations would be a more holistic approach and solve more problems. I have no doubt that tightly coupling a component to the Stacore results in better performance than decoupling the component from the Stacore platform, but that is based on intuition rather than on experimentation.

 

[flyer]

I have no doubt that tightly coupling a component to the Stacore results in better performance than decoupling the component from the Stacore platform, but that is based on intuition rather than on experimentation.

I can confirm from proper experimentation.

The Aries Cerat models have mostly (not all) footers with a small rubber ring to avoid scratching furniture. When this rubber ring is removed (split second thing to do) and the unit repositioned on the Stacore Advanced platform, the latter's effect takes another leap. I recall the effect of that specific intervention was most apparent in reduced microphonics in the high frequency area. Test carried out with the Genus integrated amplifier and the Incito preamp.

Here's what i wrote in my very first post on this:
Finally, a particular experience with the Incito: originally I had the Incito on the platform but on its original feet which incorporates a rubber ring. I found the soundstage to be projected quite forward and that disturbed me. Lowering the pneumatic pressure, so the platform was hardly above the floor, gave me then best results, but I knew I was kind of cancelling some effects of the platform by doing so. Until Stacore, very helpful by the way (!), told me that a direct hard but even contact between the surface and the platform works best. So, out went the rubber rings and suddenly I had all the upsides without the projecting soundstage issue! Wonderful!

 

[PeterA]

I can confirm from proper experimentation.

The Aries Cerat models have mostly (not all) footers with a small rubber ring to avoid scratching furniture. When this rubber ring is removed (split second thing to do) and the unit repositioned on the Stacore Advanced platform, the latter's effect takes another leap. I recall the effect of that specific intervention was most apparent in reduced microphonics in the high frequency area. Test carried out with the Genus integrated amplifier and the Incito preamp.

Here's what i wrote in my very first post on this:
Finally, a particular experience with the Incito: originally I had the Incito on the platform but on its original feet which incorporates a rubber ring. I found the soundstage to be projected quite forward and that disturbed me. Lowering the pneumatic pressure, so the platform was hardly above the floor, gave me then best results, but I knew I was kind of cancelling some effects of the platform by doing so. Until Stacore, very helpful by the way (!), told me that a direct hard but even contact between the surface and the platform works best. So, out went the rubber rings and suddenly I had all the upsides without the projecting soundstage issue! Wonderful!

Thank you Flyer. This does not surprise me at all. I removed what seem like similar rubber rings for furniture protection from the four footer on my SME Model 30/12 turntable. Performance improved. The rubber was keeping vibrations meant to exit the component from doing so.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ditto here. Soft compliant footers are out, hard inert footers in. I believe this is the root cause of Ked getting such meh results when testing GG dac on Stacore, he left the stock rubber footers in situ.
I see Lampi have changed these for Stacore hard footers on the Pacific.
In my case using the stock footers on my Eera cdp was ok, but unremarkable.
Switching to Symposium Acoustics Precision Couplers made a massive difference, and stay until Stacore perfect their final choice of metal/slate footers.

 

[bonzo75]

Ok, we will compare Pacific stacore and Mook

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, if there is a dispute on comparing active to passive, then it’s definitely apples to oranges comparing Stacore to Mooks. They do totally different things, with Stacore acting as a drain for component-borne vibrations via hard footers, combined with isolating the component from floor-borne vibrations.
Mooks as far as I can see don’t do either of these, but more act as resonance band enhancers. I base this feeling on the fact that in my highly neutral and responsive space, everything I put my Mooks under acquired a tonal sameness, a certain enhanced euphonic warmth in midbass that homogenised everything I listened to.
Mooks cannot live with Stacore, it’s not even close.
But if you are ever going to compare Mooks to Stacore, try and use the Stacore correctly, bypassing any stock compliant footers and replace with hard. Certainly if you test Pacific, the footers will be in situ, you can plonk it on a Stacore no problem.

 

[bonzo75]

4 of us who did the last compare disagree, and the guy who has the stacore continues to use them with mooks on top with his GG2. Will post pics tomorrow

Edit: on the other hand I won't, on this thread. So Marc please keep me out. I understand it works on your floor.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Exactly like the passive ones. I keep explaining that there is no such thing as a mechanical diode so if you isolate/damp one way, you do it both ways.
Cheers,

Dear Jarek,

I understand you to be reporting that if you place a sheet of Sorbothane on a concrete floor and then place an audio component on the Sorbothane, the Sorbothane will absorb:

1) vibrations coming up through the floor towards the component, and

2) vibrations generated internally within the component and emanating from the component, and

3) vibrations coming from the component as a result of acoustic feedback impinging upon the component and vibrating the component?

The sheet of Sorbothane will convert the vibrations from all three sources into heat?

 

[PeterA]

Dear Jarek,

I understand you to be reporting that if you place a sheet of Sorbothane on a concrete floor and then place an audio component on the Sorbothane, the Sorbothane will absorb:

1) vibrations coming up through the floor towards the component, and

2) vibrations generated internally within the component and emanating from the component, and

3) vibrations coming from the component as a result of acoustic feedback impinging upon the component and vibrating the component?

The sheet of Sorbothane will convert the vibrations from all three sources into heat?

That is an interesting question, Ron. Why don't people simply remove all component footers and place the component on a large sheet of some compliant material like Sorbothane? Is it because of ventilation? Perhaps rubber footers are a good idea in principle, but there is not enough surface area to be truly effective.

 

[Stacore]

Dear Jarek,

I understand you to be reporting that if you place a sheet of Sorbothane on a concrete floor and then place an audio component on the Sorbothane, the Sorbothane will absorb:

1) vibrations coming up through the floor towards the component, and

2) vibrations generated internally within the component and emanating from the component, and

3) vibrations coming from the component as a result of acoustic feedback impinging upon the component and vibrating the component?

The sheet of Sorbothane will convert the vibrations from all three sources into heat?

Dear Ron,

1) Yes, within its physical capabilities

2) Prevent them, within its physical capabilities, from being propagated to the floor

3) Potentially yes, but much depends on how the component is coupled to the Sorbothane

Cheers,

 

[ddk]

Tango and Christian are proposing different solutions to the same problem. Do they not fully understand the problem they are trying to solve?

What problem? Anyone identify even one besides holding up 200+kg:b? This case is quite simple Tango is going with what makes sense to him Chris likes the tech and wants to Play. All this audiophile talk about vibration, energy, absorption, dissipation, reversal etc. is nothing more than conjecture & verbal masterbation at the same level of power cords and global warming. Yes there are actual physical laws and science at play but it’s affects on Sound is variable and the reasons are often unclear in high end audio but with experience and intuition we can predict outcomes in some situations but no more.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Love it Dave, “masturbation at the level of power cords and global warming”.
You do know ONLY ONE of these is fake news?...

 

[ddk]

Love it Dave, “power cords and global warming”.
You do know ONLY ONE of these is fake news?...

They're both true, powercords change sound and weather affects climate it's the why and the how and what to do about it, if anything at all, which is more than fuzzy with "Truths" offered by opportunistic con artists backed by armies of screaming morons in tow for both !

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Dave, you’d be horrified that the funds I’ve ploughed into cables, including nefarious power cords, ground boxes, and ongoing Stacores spend, equates to a lovely brand sparking new AF1 tt.
My only defense is that I’m not at Mike L’s level of uber tweak investment just yet.

 

[ddk]

Well Dave, you’d be horrified that the funds I’ve ploughed into cables, including nefarious power cords, ground boxes, and ongoing Stacores spend, equates to a lovely brand sparking new AF1 tt.
My only defense is that I’m not at Mike L’s level of uber tweak investment just yet.

Never said all just plenty of! And it's not my money you spend it anyway that brings you pleasure Marc, never judging that .

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) Yes there are actual physical laws and science at play but it’s affects on Sound is variable and the reasons are often unclear in high end audio but with experience and intuition we can predict outcomes in some situations but no more.

david

David,

Great summary sentence. But you are spoiling the fun of the technical minded people who love to think and show they are understanding and predicting high-end sound with their science ...