Tad reference 1

[Smokin' Joe]

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb124j-tad-reference-1-tx-eb-speaker

Now listed on audiogon.

 

[Amir]

TAD Japan have lost my business.

What is the Problem?

 

[Avidlistener]

The seller indicated he is downsizing houses and doesn’t have the room. Looks like a great deal for someone.

 

[Amir]

TAD R1 is Like wonderful Lexsus LFA ,at mid Price gives you cost-no-object Performance.

I believe between dynamic Driver loudspeakers only just only the Tidal La Assoluta $800,000 (diamond Midrange) come close in transparency.

I would like TAD start designing a Sealed Box Subwoofer tower (under 35Hz) and Put the Crossover between pre and power amplifier (tri-amp).

 

[Tbzc]

TAD R1 is Like wonderful Lexsus LFA ,at mid Price gives you cost-no-object Performance.

I believe between dynamic Driver loudspeakers only just only the Tidal La Assoluta $800,000 (diamond Midrange) come close in transparency.

I would like TAD start designing a Sealed Box Subwoofer tower (under 35Hz) and Put the Crossover between pre and power amplifier (tri-amp).

Well, I had Tad R1 and my previous car was Lexus ( sadly not LF A). I can relate to what you wrote but would put it a bit differently. LF A was cost no object project and was quite expensive when it was presented. Super V10 machine, carbon fiber parts, pretty progressive for that time. Like it was original Tad M1. Afterwards in Ref One lots of compromises were made: cheap crossover, no more mid bass driver, less complex housing. Like serial Lexus, no more then pimped up Toyota. Lots of marketing bullshit, like Takumi. Sorry to be a bit cynical but that‘s my experience. Became quite skeptical of Japanese marketing messages…

 

[Amir]

Well, I had Tad R1 and my previous car was Lexus ( sadly not LF A). I can relate to what you wrote but would put it a bit differently. LF A was cost no object project and was quite expensive when it was presented. Super V10 machine, carbon fiber parts, pretty progressive for that time. Like it was original Tad M1. Afterwards in Ref One lots of compromises were made: cheap crossover, no more mid bass driver, less complex housing. Like serial Lexus, no more then pimped up Toyota. Lots of marketing bullshit, like Takumi. Sorry to be a bit cynical but that‘s my experience. Became quite skeptical of Japanese marketing messages…

I did not have M1 but my R1 is much better than Other speakers under $400,000.

only listening is valid for judgment and listening to TAD R1 is a wonderful experience.

please let me know about M1 crossover vs R1 crossover , could you prove that R1 use cheap crossover?

Most of Marketing bullshit come from USA and some European company not Japan.
Japan products like TAD, Kondo, CEC, Acrolink, Shindo, OCC are far better than other In the price range.
After 30 years you can not find better than Kondo 300b.



after 22 years of listening to USA, Europe and Japan high end Products , I believe Japanese company are more honest than most companies in Other countries.

 

[Amir]

What makes Japan Products Special to me:


Emotional Sound (audio as art not only measurements) from kondo , shindo, Susumu Sakuma
Minimalist Audio Design (minimum parts design like 47 labs , kondo , ...)
Kondo Ongaku and gaku-on amplifier (in my idea the best tube amplifier forever)
producing best Transistor/fet/mosfet (like toshiba , sanken , ...)
Static Induction Transistor (SIT) jfet (yamaha b2 amplifier)
7N or 8N occ copper cables (Ohno Continuous Cast)
NOS DAC design
Beryllium Midrange (from Pioneer TAD)
CEC TL0 3.0 Transport (best belt drive transport)
Stax X9000 Headphone (best headphone)
Best Audio Capacitors
Best copper/silver transformers
best CD records
best silver cables (kondo)
Nakamichi 1000ZXL tape recorder
Microseiki 8000 turntable (belt drive air suspension)

 

[Tbzc]

What makes Japan Products Special to me:


Emotional Sound (audio as art not only measurements) from kondo , shindo, Susumu Sakuma
Minimalist Audio Design (minimum parts design like 47 labs , kondo , ...)
Kondo Ongaku and gaku-on amplifier (in my idea the best tube amplifier forever)
producing best Transistor/fet/mosfet (like toshiba , sanken , ...)
Static Induction Transistor (SIT) jfet (yamaha b2 amplifier)
7N or 8N occ copper cables (Ohno Continuous Cast)
NOS DAC design
Beryllium Midrange (from Pioneer TAD)
CEC TL0 3.0 Transport (best belt drive transport)
Stax X9000 Headphone (best headphone)
Best Audio Capacitors
Best copper/silver transformers
best CD records
best silver cables (kondo)
Nakamichi 1000ZXL tape recorder
Microseiki 8000 turntable (belt drive air suspension)

Do not want to argue with you regarding the sound. If you think your speakers are the best, then they are the best. This is subjective. And I appreciate that. I also thought at one point in time the same as you do now. What is objective is what I wrote regarding Ref one, esspecially the crossover. I had the speakers, opened it, saw the crossover and the cheap parts. Google it, you have lots of pics of it. What is also objective is that the world is moving foward in time: 10-15 years ago they were good speakers. Still are. But have not done any real progress since then. But others have.

 

[Amir]

If you claim the crossover is cheap you should prove it. Nothing find in google.

TAD use the most expensive Driver and very few drivers (like vitavox) come close in cost.
Also bass drivers are the best in the world.

listen to bass of TAD R1 and compare it to other speakers. It is easy to hear the differences

 

[Amir]

 

[Amir]

Your comment about TAD R1 in 2018:

Before owning Tad Ref One, I had Kaiser Kawero Classic. Although later has its merits, Tad plays in different, higher league. It is real full range speaker with unbelievable dynamics and transparency. My friend still owns Kaweros and when I listen to them I now find them colored and much less realistic. When he listened at my place he was blown away by transparency, dynamics and energy of music. For him, the presentation of Tad was a bit over the top: to realistic, not allowing to listen to them as a background music, to intense experience.

On the other hand, the best sound I have achieved with Kaweros was with tube amps: Ayon Vulcan evo and, interestingly, Audionote Jinro, which was magical combination. Very musical. The designer of Kaiser listen once to Audionote integrated at my place and he was very pleased with the sound. So, if you are thinking about Aries Cerat tubes, it might be excellent combo.

Tad for me is like a classic, muscle car. The design is more than 10:years old and IMHO they still can compete with most of the speakers in that price range, be it Magico or Wilson or Focal. I actually think there is a hidden potential in the crossover of Tad. Where Kaiser uses top parts by Mundorf and Duelund, the parts in crossover in Tad are really cheap. I just can not imagine what could be achieved if someone would build externall crossover with top parts!

 

[Tbzc]

Please google Tad ref one crossover. Google is full of pics. I spent 15 seconds and found many…

like: https://www.avmagazine.it/amp/articoli/diffusori/383/pioneer-tad-reference-one_6.html

See at the caps and the parts. Also there was even a discussion about CR1 mods, on Audiogon, I belive. Talk to somebody (and show him the pics) who has experience and you have confidence in and you might agree. It is really cheap for the price the want to have for the speakers. I wanted to modify the crossover, but at the end only used some duelund bypasses - big improvement. But finally gave up.

But that is not the point: you made an analogy between Tad and Lexus. I had just shared my reflection from mine DIRECT experience with both. And my point was: both are industrial products, compromises were made.



Long live Tad

 

[Tbzc]

Your comment about TAD R1 in 2018:

Yes, exactly what I wrote in my previous post to you. I also thought once there are the best. I think I am quite consistent. But allow myself to be open to evolve...

 

[bonzo75]

Well, I had Tad R1 and my previous car was Lexus ( sadly not LF A). I can relate to what you wrote but would put it a bit differently. LF A was cost no object project and was quite expensive when it was presented. Super V10 machine, carbon fiber parts, pretty progressive for that time. Like it was original Tad M1. Afterwards in Ref One lots of compromises were made: cheap crossover, no more mid bass driver, less complex housing. Like serial Lexus, no more then pimped up Toyota. Lots of marketing bullshit, like Takumi. Sorry to be a bit cynical but that‘s my experience. Became quite skeptical of Japanese marketing messages…

i have heard TZBC’s TAD system twice, never liked it. His current sigma MAAT speakers are way superior.

have also heard the TAD bookshelf with Gryphon Mephisto and Luxman M900u, and the smaller Floorstander with the Viola and the Luxman.

 

[Avidlistener]

A couple of thoughts on the most recent posts.

The modding of the crossover that was discussed on A’gon (at least in the CR1) consists of bypassing 1 resistor. I bought the parts but a friend felt it was too risky to try, at least as far as his abilities. Maybe it he felt it would lower the value of the speaker or didn’t want to be responsible in case something went wrong.

I never did the mod but would still like to if anyone has suggestions for someone in NYC.

I do dream of using my TAD’s with an active crossover one day.

Andrew Jones told me TAD did experiment with Diamond drivers but got better results with Beryllium.

I have extended my CR1’s with a sealed pair of servo subs (Velodyne DD10+) and ‘stat super tweeters, so I know the concept works quite well.

Also when I first got the CR1’s there were a number of issues with the sound. It wasn’t until years later when my ancillary gear got better that the issues disappeared, so perhaps impressions of TAD more recently give a better impression of what the speakers are capable of.

 

[Amir]

i have heard TZBC’s TAD system twice, never liked it. His current sigma MAAT speakers are way superior.

have also heard the TAD bookshelf with Gryphon Mephisto and Luxman M900u, and the smaller Floorstander with the Viola and the Luxman.

No professional audiophile change his loudspeaker because of bad sound. Before any decision before any judgment you should find the source of problem not change the loudspeaker or amplifier or ...

high performance speakers like TAD need perfect setup to sound good. TAD Speaker is not like low performance gryphon speaker or sonus faber and every thing should be perfect behind it.
We have many many audiophiles that buy then sell then buy then sell and ...
these audiophile are in vicious cycle that never undrestand were is the problem.

TAD R1 In good Acoustics good speaker placement right upstream and good AC quality will outperform any other DD loudspeaker even at 400000

 

[bonzo75]

No professional audiophile change his loudspeaker because of bad sound. Before any decision before any judgment you should find the source of problem not change the loudspeaker or amplifier or ...

high performance speakers like TAD need perfect setup to sound good. TAD Speaker is not like low performance gryphon speaker or sonus faber and every thing should be perfect behind it.
We have many many audiophiles that buy then sell then buy then sell and ...
these audiophile are in vicious cycle that never undrestand were is the problem.

TAD R1 In good Acoustics good speaker placement right upstream and good AC quality will outperform any other DD loudspeaker even at 400000

I have heard them sound bad in 4 set ups. Just the amount of power required to drive them should be a non starter. TAD can be outperformed with a simple vintage Tannoy, or a Devore Orangutan O96 with an integrated 2a3. No need to bring out big guns.

 

[Amir]

I have heard them sound bad in 4 set ups. Just the amount of power required to drive them should be a non starter. TAD can be outperformed with a simple vintage Tannoy, or a Devore Orangutan O96 with an integrated 2a3. No need to bring out big guns.

TAD needs good power and TAD M700 is there to drive TAD R1.

comparing vintage Tannoy vs TAD R1 is like comparing vintage cadillac to 2022 Porsche ,
Yes Vintage Cadillac outperform 2022 Porsche in comfort driving.

Vintage Tannoy, ESP Concert Grand SI , Audio Note UK Speakers, Living Voice Speakers, Devore Speakers all of them are Emotional Loudspeakers and the design concept is different to TAD , Tidal, Vivid Audio, Evolution Acoustics .

Those are Two different world and two different design concept , you can not compare them

 

[Bobbi]

I owned the R1. Tried a heap of amplifiers but the end of the day the loudspeaker was not enjoyable for long listening sessions in my experience. The mids/highs too coarse. Music selection shrank due to some recordings being unlistenable.
I have had a negative opinion of beryllium since and only this year I heard the Beryllium tweeter from Von Schweikert and it changed my opinion again.
they have damped the beryllium (with ceramic I think) and the results are stunning. Have a listen to this tweeter to hear how beryllium can sound realistic whilst presenting a non fatiguing long term listening experience.
When I have the R1 I went away for a weekend, I spent a few days with another speaker which cost $27k. Far less than the R1 and I got much more from it. I promptly sold the R1 and never looked back.
No need to mention the name of the other speaker but to say R1 are competitive up to 400k is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Stef]

I owned the R1. Tried a heap of amplifiers but the end of the day the loudspeaker was not enjoyable for long listening sessions in my experience. The mids/highs too coarse. Music selection shrank due to some recordings being unlistenable.
I have had a negative opinion of beryllium since and only this year I heard the Beryllium tweeter from Von Schweikert and it changed my opinion again.
they have damped the beryllium (with ceramic I think) and the results are stunning. Have a listen to this tweeter to hear how beryllium can sound realistic whilst presenting a non fatiguing long term listening experience.
When I have the R1 I went away for a weekend, I spent a few days with another speaker which cost $27k. Far less than the R1 and I got much more from it. I promptly sold the R1 and never looked back.
No need to mention the name of the other speaker but to say R1 are competitive up to 400k is a bit of a stretch.

Owning the CR1-tx and being very familiar with the R1, I can say that TAD speakers take no prisoners and are fully revealing the quality of each setup. I moved from Wilson Audio to TAD which has pushed me to better understand and upgrade some of my components. I understand that each setup has its own bottle neck but I feel hard to believe that the TAD tweeter/midrange beryllium dome could be one of it. I have also tried many power amps (Esoteric / Dartzeel / FM accoustics /…) but IMHO the synergy between the TAD amps and speakers is key. Have you tried to reach other R1 users and listened to their experience driving the R1 before selling yours? What was your system configuration at that time?