Some More Evidence that Kids (American and Japanese) Prefer Good Sound
- Thread starter tonmeister2008
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Geoffrey Morrison, an audio writer at CNET and Sound & Vision has posted a nice summary of my recent AES paper "Some New Evidence that Teenager and College Students May Prefer Accurate Sound Reproduction" presented at the recent 132nd AES Convention in Budapest, Hungary.
The paper should be available shortly for download at the AES E-library, but in the meantime, I have provided a YouTube video and a PDF of my presentation slides that summarize the main points of the research.
The abstract of the paper reads as follows:
A group of 58 high school and college students with different expertise in sound evaluation participated in two separate controlled listening tests that measured their preference choices between music reproduced in (1) MP3 (128 kbp/s) and lossless CD-quality file formats, and (2) music reproduced through four different consumer loudspeakers. As a group, the students preferred the CD-quality reproduction in 70% of the trials and preferred music reproduced through the most accurate, neutral loudspeaker. Critical listening experience was a significant factor in the listeners’ performance and preferences. Together, these tests provide some new evidence that both teenagers and college students can discern and appreciate a better quality of reproduced sound when given the opportunity to directly compare it against lower quality options.
The effects of culture and trained versus untrained listeners on loudspeaker preference are topics that have been discussed in previous postings on Audio Musings. To further shed some light on this topic, I also ran 149 native speaking Japanese college students through the same loudspeaker preference test along with 12 Harman trained listeners. The graph below shows the mean loudspeaker preference ratings for these two groups of listeners along with the four different groups of high school and college students from Los Angeles.
Not surprising, (at least to me) I found that the Japanese college students on average preferred the same accurate loudspeaker (A) as did the 58 Los Angeles students and the trained Harman listening panel. The main differences among the different listening groups were related to the effect of prior critical listening experience: the more trained listeners simply rated the loudspeakers lower on the preference scale, and were more discriminating and consistent in their responses. This result is consistent with previous studies. The least preferred and least accurate loudspeaker (Loudspeaker D) generated the most variance in ratings among the different listening groups. This was explained by its highly directional behavior combined with its inconsistent frequency response as you move from on-axis to off-axis seating positions. This meant that listeners sitting off-axis heard a much different (and apparently better quality) sound than those listeners sitting on-axis.
While the small sample size of listeners in this test does not allow us to make generalizations to larger populations, nonetheless it is reassuring to find that both American and Japanese students, regardless of their critical listening experience, recognized good sound when they heard it, and preferred it to the lower quality options.
It would appear that the reason kids don't purchase better sounding audio solutions has nothing to do with their so-called "deviant" tastes in sound quality, but more to do with factors (e.g. price, convenience, portability, marketing, fashion accessory) that have nothing to do with sound quality. Music and audio companies should take notice that kids can indeed discriminate between good and bad sound, and prefer the more accurate version, despite what the media has been falsely reporting for the last few years. With that out of the way, we should focus on figuring out how to sell sound quality to kids at affordable prices and formats they desire to own.
The research suggests that if we cannot figure out how to sell better sound to kids, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Sean, why no SE or SD of the data pts? ESP. Given such small sample sizes?
That was the first thing I thought when I saw the data points as well. The average rating means nothing if the SD is very wide or p-value does not reach statistical significance.
Relevant to conclusions...
I believe Sean indicated loudspeaker position was kept constant, i.e. a variable which is controlled.
It's reasonable to wonder, scientifically, if said position influenced qualitative results.
I'm unacquainted with details of this presentation...was an hypothesis advanced
I believe Sean indicated loudspeaker position was kept constant, i.e. a variable which is controlled.
It's reasonable to wonder, scientifically, if said position influenced qualitative results.
I'm unacquainted with details of this presentation...was an hypothesis advanced
In the same vein, I suppose, but not at all scientific is a poll that Fiona Apple ran. It is halfway down her page...
http://www.facebook.com/fionaapple
This assumes vinyl is superior, but I wouldn't be biased, would I?
http://www.facebook.com/fionaapple
This assumes vinyl is superior, but I wouldn't be biased, would I?
This is nonsense. Are you saying if speakers sound bad 30 degrees off-axis it's not fair to listen at that spot? What about listeners not sitting in the sweet spot? And to be fair, the speakers were tested with listeners sitting both on and off-axis.
Also, in the case of the ML speaker, it actually was rated lower when listeners sat on-axis versus on-axis because it's spectral balance is actually better sitting off-axis compared to on-axis. If you look at the anechoic measurements, the first two curves from top to bottom represent the sound received on-axis and slightly off-axis (we call it the listening window) Both curves ndicate an elevated mid-treble relative to the bass, making it sound very bright, harsh and thin. As you move off-axis, the third curve from the top (first reflections) show a more balanced, albeit slightly dull" frequency response. For listeners sitting off-axis the speaker is more balanced. The reason the Harman listeners rated it so low compared to the other groups is because the Harman listeners were all sitting on-axis, whereas the other listening groups were distributed in seats both on-axis and slightly off-axis.
So, if anything, we were doing the speaker a favor by including listeners sitting off-axis. If we included only on-axis listening results it would have been rated even lower.
That is true: speaker position was kept constant. For the Harman listeners, seat was also kept constant. For the groups of students, the listening seats were distributed around the speaker under test.I believe Sean indicated loudspeaker position was kept constant, i.e. a variable which is controlled.
It's reasonable to wonder, scientifically, if said position influenced qualitative results.
I'm unacquainted with details of this presentation...was an hypothesis advanced
The speaker position was the same for all speaker tested. Off-axis response is a factor via the reflected sounds received by the listener, and for listeners sitting off-axis, the direct sound and the reflected sounds.
The speakers were adjusted for equal loudness at the listening position.
The Japanese students were tested as a group, and a significant portion of them sat off-axis where the ML's performance is actually better than it is on-axis (based on measurements and listening test results). The UCI and LMU students were studying recording arts at the undergraduate and masters level, respectively. Thus they were deemed to have more experience in critical evaluation than the other student groups (high school, Cal Arts and Kenshu College).
I've left them out for the sake of visual clarity given how many data sets are plotted on one graph.
Which interestingly is NOT how ML speakers sound at all unless set up badly (as for any speaker), not allowed to charge for 24 hours before listening (or bein brand new) or listening to bad digital recordings. Then the speaker is only as good as the source (as should be any good speaker). I'd be glad to have you over someday Sean and demonstrate that fact.
And Bjorn is right. People who buy a ML know it is a one person listening area. And according to the owners manual, spectral balance is attained in most situations when the speaker's inner third is pointed toward the listening position.
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Thank you Sean the added information was useful. Just a couple more if you please but not all at once.
Why weren't the Harman listeners distributed the same way as the groups with similar n's and if you have done it what were the results?
To be honest, the Harman listening results are from an earlier benchmarking test, and were not originally intended as part of these Generation Y listening tests. But I added the results here show that there is a correlation between preferences of trained vs. untrained listeners. The agreement confirms an earlier study where we tested trained vs untrained listeners using a different set of speakers (You can download the previous paper for free here: http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20120514/12206.pdf ).
Ideally, I would re-run the Harman listeners through the same test but situated in different seats..Alternatively, in the analysis I could select only the students sitting in the primary seat and compare their results with those from the Harman listeners.
The speakers were set up according to manufacturer's recommendations. I've read the manual. All speakers were subjected to the same source. If the source was bad why did the most accurate speaker receive the highest ratings, and the least accurate speaker receive the lowest ratings? There was no evidence that source material was a significant factor in these tests.
We can argue all day about how they were set up, what source was used,etc but the anechoic measurements ( which remove influence of the room and setup) indicate the least preferred speaker had severe resonances and colorations that would be audible in any room, given any loudspeaker or seating position with most programs having narrow and broad-band content. The listening test results confirm this.
If my test results don't confirm your prior listening experiences and expectations about a product, then you have to examine the similarities and differences between the conditions under which my tests and yours were performed. Did you carefully control all the known nuisance variables (psychological, hearing of listener, electroacoustical, experimental,etc)? If there are differences in any of the variables then opinions may have less to do with the speaker under test, and more to do with the influence of uncontrolled biases.
So far, I've not seen one published scientific paper in the literature that contradicts the results of our loudspeaker research, which shows a positive correlation between listener preference and the absence of colorations, resonances and distortions present in the anechoic loudspeaker measurements. If a significant portion of people like colored speakers with added resonances, why hasn't someone stepped forward to challenge our work and publish a paper showing such evidence? That is what I would do (as I did with the Berger MP3 vs CD challenge).
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Here is what I’m having a hard time dealing with. The Infinity speaker retailed for $500 per pair. That means the dealers paid $250 per pair. That means Infinity (Harman) made a profit on the $250. So let’s take a look at the number of drivers, the crossover, the cabinet, and the shipping box, packing material and labor.
There are four drivers in each cabinet for a total of eight drivers. That means if the entire $250 budget only went to the drivers, the drivers would average $31.25 each. But we don’t have $250 to buy eight drivers because profit came out of the $250 and we haven’t paid for the cabinets, crossovers, packaging, and labor. For this kind of money, I don’t know how you buy quality drivers, quality crossover components, quality cabinets, and packaging materials. And yet somehow we are led to believe the ML design is so flawed that a cheap pair of speakers that has way less than $100 in parts per speaker including the cabinet sounds better. It defies logic to put it simply.
I am a former owner of a pair of ML Aerius speakers. Even though they were limited in bass output, I thought these speakers sounded really good. I enjoyed them for years and had many happy hours of listening to them. I can’t imagine a pair of speakers with less than $100 per speaker in parts (and we never discussed the labor involved to assemble the speakers which has to be done in China at a pay scale that wouldn’t meet minimum wage requirements in the U.S.) is going to sound better than the Aerius speakers let alone a $3800 pair of ML speakers. And finally, I have never heard a pair of ML speakers that sounded better off-axis than on-axis.
There are four drivers in each cabinet for a total of eight drivers. That means if the entire $250 budget only went to the drivers, the drivers would average $31.25 each. But we don’t have $250 to buy eight drivers because profit came out of the $250 and we haven’t paid for the cabinets, crossovers, packaging, and labor. For this kind of money, I don’t know how you buy quality drivers, quality crossover components, quality cabinets, and packaging materials. And yet somehow we are led to believe the ML design is so flawed that a cheap pair of speakers that has way less than $100 in parts per speaker including the cabinet sounds better. It defies logic to put it simply.
I am a former owner of a pair of ML Aerius speakers. Even though they were limited in bass output, I thought these speakers sounded really good. I enjoyed them for years and had many happy hours of listening to them. I can’t imagine a pair of speakers with less than $100 per speaker in parts (and we never discussed the labor involved to assemble the speakers which has to be done in China at a pay scale that wouldn’t meet minimum wage requirements in the U.S.) is going to sound better than the Aerius speakers let alone a $3800 pair of ML speakers. And finally, I have never heard a pair of ML speakers that sounded better off-axis than on-axis.
Thank you for the candid reply Sean.
I have no dog in this fight. I just wanted to figure out why my appreciation of the presented data differed from the conclusions. They still differ but at least now I know why. Thanks again.
Do you have trouble dealing with this DVD player too? http://www.amazon.com/Sony-DVPSR200...f=sr_1_14?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1337047216&sr=1-14
A new DVD player from Sony for with a retail cost of $39.
Wish price could explain things this way Mark. In that regard, we would sort all the speakers based on that and buy without ever listening to them. But we don't do that. What we do is to listen to them and decide if they are good. Well, listen folks did, including myself. And the ML simply sounds bad compared to others. And I am not just talking about Harman speakers. I compared it to B&W blind and had scored it down in that comparison too. At some level you have to accept the data.
I heard them on-axis although there were others who heard it off-axis. It fared poorly for all in the two tests that I participated in.
I had a high opinion of ML also before going into this test. But at the end of the runs, I had to accept what I was hearing as not sounding as natural and normal as other designs. What would defy logic is for us to put aside such data and still believed what we like to believe. Would you say if you were in my shoes you would still think the ML is a great speaker based on its price and despite what I heard?
I honestly don't know the break-down cost of the Infinity speaker but I could certainly find out. But the main issue here is that you have trouble accepting the untruth that there is a linear relationship between the cost of the speaker and its sound quality. To me that sounds like an expectation bias.
I've been testing speakers for 26 years and have seen many examples of a well-engineered loudspeaker beating a poorly-engineered speaker costing 10x or more its price. What quality controls are in place to stop companies from building under-performing loudspeakers and charging a lot of money for it? Zero.
There are no audio federal agencies that require loudspeakers to pass some basic meaningful sound quality standard, or be submitted to clinical listening trials to show that they cause no adverse sounds or effects on your enjoyment. The current industry loudspeaker specifications are entirely useless in terms of indicating how the speakers sound, and the audio review process is sighted, biased and largely ineffective. Consumers today cannot reliably find a store where they can do an A/B demonstration of the product they're interested in purchasing.
So companies are free to design and manufacture speakers and charge whatever they want because there are virtually no meaningful specifications or controls in place that indicate how good the loudspeaker performs and sounds.
Welcome to the Wild West of our Loudspeaker Industry!
First of all, your assumption that I think there is a linear relationship between the cost of a speaker and its sound quality is false. I know that is not true with speakers or any other part of the audio chain.
I understand your point and I agree that well-engineered speakers should sound better than poorly- engineered speakers. As one ascends the retail price scale, I think it would be easier to find examples of well-engineered speakers that sound better than some other speakers on the market that sell for more money. However, when you are talking about a cheap pair of speakers that can’t have more than $50 in parts per speaker including the cabinet, that isn’t a lot of money to work with. What quality of parts can you really purchase when your budget is limited to $50 per speaker including the cabinet?
I think most of us are aware that anyone can call themselves a speaker designer and/or a speaker builder and start their own company if they have the financial resources to do so. There are no requirements for academic credentials to start up a speaker company. There are no tests you have to pass in order to sell your speakers in the commercial marketplace. However, people will vote with their wallets whether or not you will stay in business unless you are independently wealthy and you are really subsidizing a hobby and not running a business.
I agree totally. However, as I stated above, the marketplace will decide whether or not you will stay in business. Martin Logan has been in business for many years, has garnered their fair share of good reviews and has many loyal customers. People have voted with their wallets to keep this company in business. Having owned a pair of ML speakers in the past, I’m still not buying that a combined total of $100 worth of parts including the cabinets is going to sound better than a properly working pair of Martin Logan speakers that retail for $3700. Now maybe if you told me that Harman bought enough parts and cabinets to build 10,000 pairs of these $500 retail Infinity speakers that there could be enough economy of scale that you could possibly pull a rabbit out of your hat.
How long were the Martin Logan speakers plugged in to a power source before the test commenced?
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