Shunyata Grounding System

[Kingrex]

Yeah, I agree @MarkusBarkus; but Shunyata says there is indeed isolation between outlets on the same duplex. I think you are correct and this is why they also say there is better isolation among duplexes.

You can break the tab between the top and bottom outlet on a duplex and feed the hot and neutral each independently. The ground would be common to both.

 

[oldmustang]

You can break the tab between the top and bottom outlet on a duplex and feed the hot and neutral each independently. The ground would be common to both.

Absolutely correct. This is what electricians do routinely to support one outlet of a duplex being switched at the wall for a lamp or the like, while the other receptacle in the duplex remains constantly energized from the breaker panel.

Steve Z

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...yeah, I looked at the duplex and it didn't *seem* to have the traditional break-away tab structure. I used a similar duplex for a project with a P&S hard-use outlet, and I had to grind away the delrin/nylon structure to accommodate the #6 cable. I didn't mention the tab, as I thought it might confuse non-honchos, not guys like Rex and Steve Z. Anyway, we will get a take from the source before too long.

 

[oldmustang]

Richard Rogers is a neighbor of mine and he was just by last night as a matter of fact. I'll ask him next time we speak about the intra-duplex vs. inter-duplex isolation question as it relates to the Typhon and Tritons and Everests, et al.

As you say, we can surmise all we want -- we are audiophiles after all -- but short of taking a look inside your Shunyata power distribution devices for yourself, I trust what Richard tells me.

Steve Z

So, circling back to this. It was a couple of days before I had a chance to chat with Richard but when I did I asked the question about isolation socket to socket on the same duplex and duplex to duplex isolation. Here is what he said (shared with Richard's consent):

"Morning Steve!

These depends on what product of ours we’re talking about. In the Denali, each socket of the same duplex is isolated from one another. In the Everest, the middle four sockets are isolated and then the bottom and top duplexes are isolated but as a duplex not a socket. The QRBB and NIC’s service all outlets of the distributor and the isolation filtration is a separate tech from these (CCI filters or “component to component interference filters”).

Does that make sense? I’m only halfway through my first cup of coffee "

So, thank you Richard.

Steve Z

 

[Zeotrope]

So, circling back to this. It was a couple of days before I had a chance to chat with Richard but when I did I asked the question about isolation socket to socket on the same duplex and duplex to duplex isolation. Here is what he said (shared with Richard's consent):

"Morning Steve!

These depends on what product of ours we’re talking about. In the Denali, each socket of the same duplex is isolated from one another. In the Everest, the middle four sockets are isolated and then the bottom and top duplexes are isolated but as a duplex not a socket. The QRBB and NIC’s service all outlets of the distributor and the isolation filtration is a separate tech from these (CCI filters or “component to component interference filters”).

Does that make sense? I’m only halfway through my first cup of coffee "

So, thank you Richard.

Steve Z

Haha, I have had a coffee and still don’t fully understand what he said. What Richard told me is kind of contradictory:
On one hand he said all outlets are equally isolated from the other (Denali 6000 v2); but he also said that if you have only 3 components to connect it’s better to connect one to one duplex and also it’s best to group like components to one duplex (eg two digital components to one duplex rather than mixing digital and analog).

What about on the Typhon T2? I’m not sure its 2 outlets are isolated. I plugged in a subwoofer with a switching power supply and it negatively affected the sound of the DarTZeel 108.

 

[7ryder]

Haha, I have had a coffee and still don’t fully understand what he said. What Richard told me is kind of contradictory:
On one hand he said all outlets are equally isolated from the other (Denali 6000 v2); but he also said that if you have only 3 components to connect it’s better to connect one to one duplex and also it’s best to group like components to one duplex (eg two digital components to one duplex rather than mixing digital and analog).

What about on the Typhon T2? I’m not sure its 2 outlets are isolated. I plugged in a subwoofer with a switching power supply and it negatively affected the sound of the DarTZeel 108.

FWIW, I have my subs plugged into my Denali 6000 v2 and my amp is the only thing plugged into the T2. I haven't noticed any ill effects having it set up this way. My front end is on a different wall and connected to an Everest.

 

[Zeotrope]

FWIW, I have my subs plugged into my Denali 6000 v2 and my amp is the only thing plugged into the T2. I haven't noticed any ill effects having it set up this way. My front end is on a different wall and connected to an Everest.

Yes, same here.

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

Haha, I have had a coffee and still don’t fully understand what he said. What Richard told me is kind of contradictory:
On one hand he said all outlets are equally isolated from the other (Denali 6000 v2); but he also said that if you have only 3 components to connect it’s better to connect one to one duplex and also it’s best to group like components to one duplex (eg two digital components to one duplex rather than mixing digital and analog).

I believe this statement clearly illustrates that sockets within a duplex are not (completely) isolated from one another, but duplex to duplex is, ah?

 

[kimmusic]

I followed Shunyata's advice and checked for one-ohm resistance locations on my mono amps that are acceptable for grounding to an Altaira. I can ground to a chassis screw or can connect an RCA tail to the unused RCA input.

Is the RCA the better choice if I only want one cable since it grounds more internal "signal" EMI, than the outer chassis screw might?

On a related note, Shunyata is making 2, 3, and 4 end tail cables that can connect to one grounding wire. With one of these 2 ended "Y" tails, I could connect both the RCA and the chassis screw and use just one ground cable back to the Altaira. These should be announced in a few weeks, and grounding multiple locations on a component should provide a much better result.

 

[Zeotrope]

I followed Shunyata's advice and checked for one-ohm resistance locations on my mono amps that are acceptable for grounding to an Altaira. I can ground to a chassis screw or can connect an RCA tail to the unused RCA input.

Is the RCA the better choice if I only want one cable since it grounds more internal "signal" EMI, than the outer chassis screw might?

On a related note, Shunyata is making 2, 3, and 4 end tail cables that can connect to one grounding wire. With one of these 2 ended "Y" tails, I could connect both the RCA and the chassis screw and use just one ground cable back to the Altaira. These should be announced in a few weeks, and grounding multiple locations on a component should provide a much better result.

It shouldn’t matter if the resistance is the same. Connect to the point where measured resistance between the point and the AC ground pin is lowest.

 

[kimmusic]

Actually, my chassis screw to the power cable ground pin had 0-ohm resistance and to the RCA shell had around one ohm resistance. The power cable safety ground basically already grounds the chassis to some degree as it goes back to the Everest, and from there into the Altaira.

To me it seems the best bang for the buck for one cable would be to use an RCA tail and run an Alpha ground cable back directly to the Altaira.

However, Shunyata agrees two or even more locations for grounding a component can be beneficial. They would not be making multiple ended tails unless there was a benefit.

 

[Zeotrope]

Right, I guess not. I‘m sure Richard would tell you to try it both ways and listen to see if you hear any differences.

 

[Puma Cat]

I followed Shunyata's advice and checked for one-ohm resistance locations on my mono amps that are acceptable for grounding to an Altaira. I can ground to a chassis screw or can connect an RCA tail to the unused RCA input.

Is the RCA the better choice if I only want one cable since it grounds more internal "signal" EMI, than the outer chassis screw might?

Whenever possible, the PRIMARY connection to "ground" (e.g. an Altaira) is using a "dedicated chassis ground" post or chassis fastener that conects to chassis ground as the recommended implementation, particularly if using CG hub. The guidance is that it if a connecton from a chassis fastener or ground post to chassis ground is not possible (e.g., with Constellation and some other gear), then use a signal interface connection. The connection to "chassis ground" must be verified by using an Ohm meter. However, if your component has a ground terminal (e.g. Esoteric gear, First Sound, etc.), or a chassis screw that makes a verifiable (with data) connection to ground, that connection should be used first.

On a related note, Shunyata is making 2, 3, and 4 end tail cables that can connect to one grounding wire. With one of these 2 ended "Y" tails, I could connect both the RCA and the chassis screw and use just one ground cable back to the Altaira. These should be announced in a few weeks, and grounding multiple locations on a component should provide a much better result.

Yes, you can do that. Any additional, properly-made connections to an Altaira will provided additional levels of noise reduction.

 

[Puma Cat]

Actually, my chassis screw to the power cable ground pin had 0-ohm resistance and to the RCA shell had around one ohm resistance. The power cable safety ground basically already grounds the chassis to some degree as it goes back to the Everest, and from there into the Altaira.

Use the chassis screw.

To me it seems the best bang for the buck for one cable would be to use an RCA tail and run an Alpha ground cable back directly to the Altaira.

Again, if possible, the primary connection should be to a dedicated chassis ground terminal or chassis fastener. If your component's "grounding implementation" does not support making a connection to chassis ground using a ground post or chassis screw/fastener, then use signal interface connections. If you want to make additional connections, then you can use multi-head tail RCA "tails" to connect any unused RCA interfaces, L and R. Same can be used for XLR connections.

However, Shunyata agrees two or even more locations for grounding a component can be beneficial. They would not be making multiple ended tails unless there was a benefit.

That is correct for making connections to "signal ground" for signal interfaces. You only need one, good, verifiable (with data) connection to chassis ground.

 

[Puma Cat]

Right, I guess not. I‘m sure Richard would tell you to try it both ways and listen to see if you hear any differences.

Richard would also advise customers to read the comprehensive Altaira (and Gemini) instructional information on system and connection configuration, FIRST. This is really important.

 

[kimmusic]

Use the chassis screw.

A ground cable with a spade tail for connecting to your chassis ground point, and then you can use RCA "tails" to connect any unused RCA interfaces, L and R. Same can be used for XLR connections.

That is correct for making connections to "signal ground" for signal interfaces. You only need one, good, verifiable (with data) connection to chassis ground.

Thank you for responding. I did already confirm with Shunyata that I can use both signal and chassis grounds on a single "chassis" interface version Altaira.

Yes, it is recommended to start with the chassis ground first. I actually like the ring ends for the chassis grounds as they fit really well to new brass or copper chassis screw replacements.

I do not need to buy an additional "signal" Altaira unit if I only have 4-5 components and I have 6 isolated ground plug locations available. The upcoming Y connector tail will also allow both a chassis and a signal ground (XLR or RCA) tail, to be supplied to a single ground cable which could be plugged into either of the two Altaira systems and be effective.

 

[Puma Cat]

Thank you for responding. I did already confirm with Shunyata that I can use both signal and chassis grounds on a single "chassis" interface version Altaira.

Yes, you can make both "chassis ground" and "signal ground" connections using an SG hub. This is what I use in my dual-mono configuration for my Constellation integrated.

Yes, it is recommended to start with the chassis ground first. I actually like the ring ends for the chassis grounds as they fit really well to new brass or copper chassis screw replacements.

My point was that making a "chassis ground" connection, if that's possible, should be the "primary" connection to Altaira. The ring ends are an excellent way to go, as you minimize the terminal "pulling off" from it's connection point.

I do not need to buy an additional "signal" Altaira unit if I only have 4-5 components and I have 6 isolated ground plug locations available. The upcoming Y connector tail will also allow both a chassis and a signal ground (XLR or RCA) tail, to be supplied to a single ground cable which could be plugged into either of the two Altaira systems and be effective.

That's correct. For only 4-5 single SG Altaira is fine for making both your chassis ground and signal interface ground connections. Cheers.

 

[kimmusic]

There are two ALTAIRA models available. Both have six terminals, each with their own dedicated zones of isolation. The ALTAIRA Chassis Hub is ideal for simple systems that have fewer than six components. The filters at each zone of isolation are tuned to the frequencies most commonly found riding the chassis-grounds of components.
The specs indicate:
Noise Reduction:
6-12dB @ 3kHz-30MHz

For more complex systems, the ALTAIRA Signal Hub may be used to segregate and isolate certain types of components. For instance, separating the digital components from the analog components will provide a higher levels of performance. Filters are tuned to reduce frequencies that most commonly ride the signal ground of components.
The specs indicate:
Earth Ground Isolation (SG-NR unit only):
>6db @ 50kHz-30MHz

If I read this correctly, the Chassis Hub covers a much broader range of frequencies for noise reduction, which includes both lower frequencies found in chassis and upper signal ground frequencies as well. The Signal Hub concentrates its tuning mostly on the higher frequencies that are more commonly found internally on signal grounds.

 

[Puma Cat]

There are two ALTAIRA models available. Both have six terminals, each with their own dedicated zones of isolation. The ALTAIRA Chassis Hub is ideal for simple systems that have fewer than six components. The filters at each zone of isolation are tuned to the frequencies most commonly found riding the chassis-grounds of components.
The specs indicate:
Noise Reduction:
6-12dB @ 3kHz-30MHz

For more complex systems, the ALTAIRA Signal Hub may be used to segregate and isolate certain types of components. For instance, separating the digital components from the analog components will provide a higher levels of performance. Filters are tuned to reduce frequencies that most commonly ride the signal ground of components.
The specs indicate:
Earth Ground Isolation (SG-NR unit only):
>6db @ 50kHz-30MHz

If I read this correctly, the Chassis Hub covers a much broader range of frequencies for noise reduction, which includes both lower frequencies found in chassis and upper signal ground frequencies as well. The Signal Hub concentrates its tuning mostly on the higher frequencies that are more commonly found internally on signal grounds.

Yes, that's correct. The standard guidance is to use a CG hub if you're going to install a single Altaira for an entire system. For example, for your specific setup, the standard recommendation would be to use a CG hub. And, you can still make connections for interfaces, e.g. unused RCA or XLR inputs, that "technically" make a connection to "signal ground" to a CG hub.

For "segmented" systems, the guidance is to use multiple SG hubs. Your best bet, if possible, is to audition both, and see what you prefer for your specific configuration and implementation. They both do wonderful things for the presentation, just in a somewhat "different" manner. The GP-NR system in the Gemini power distributors are based on the CG hub specification.

 

[keithc]

If I read this correctly, the Chassis Hub covers a much broader range of frequencies for noise reduction, which includes both lower frequencies found in chassis and upper signal ground frequencies as well. The Signal Hub concentrates its tuning mostly on the higher frequencies that are more commonly found internally on signal grounds.

Please post on how you like it once you get your grounding system all set up. I'm interested in incorporating Altaira later this year as well.