Should i surrender? Perlisten sub

[Stereophonic]

Hi everybody.
This is first time i consider seriously to add a sub to my beloved Tad CR1.
Perlisten subs are really interesting.
First, some info of D212s. The one i find best match for a 25m2 room.

The Home Audio Gear We Use & Love

Join Gene and Theo Nicolakis for this unique show to talk about the audio gear we use, how it enhances our musical and home theater experience, and why we lo...

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Perlisten D215s: Is This the Most Accurate Subwoofer on the Planet?

Our review of the Perlisten D215s dual driver, push pull subwoofer proved it to be one of the most advanced and accurate on the planet per decibel of output as well as per cubic foot of space.

www.audioholics.com

 

[andromedaaudio]

I d say go for it.
Best sub ( integration )i ve heard so far , regardless of $$$$
Magico Wilson kharma subs ,.....etc

 

[Stereophonic]

Thank you @andromedaaudio.
This thread can’t begin better…
Could you please share your opinion?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I listened to it for about an hour at Ultimate audio Lisbon , integrated with Rockport Lyras
I requested many different kinds of music , orchestral / organ ,and i couldn t really fault it .
If you dont hear it , but you do hear the extension then its a fine sub (off course the shop set it up right in this case )

 

[ecwl]

To me, it’s always better to have an in-room frequency response measurement at the listening position of the speakers prior to getting a subwoofer.
Sure, most of the time, people just want more low-bass. But sometimes, there is actually a dip in the mid or high bass that’s due to speaker placement or listening seat position so adding a sub may or may not solve the problem. Sometimes, the speakers anre already providing a good frequency response and an good amount of low-mid-high bass but the owner just want more bass at a higher dB which a properly integrated subwoofers could potentially provide.

But in my mind, without a measurement, it’s hard to know what (if anything) the bass issues are and whether and how a subwoofer would (or wouldn’t) solve the actual issues.

Considering a microphone costs <$200 and a subwoofer of the calibre we are talking about are >$5000, I would say a microphone is a prerequisite expense.

 

[Stereophonic]

Thank you @ecwl

Yes. You are right from technical perspective.
Your opinion is welcome.
I’ve moved my speakers to every position and my ears are which tell me best position with my feeling of sound.
I’m not a fan of technical measurements.
One reason i don’t like subs is they have infinite combination of settings and they are very difficult to balance with speakers.
Tads CR1 have enough bass to my room, but the shape of it makes bass null modes i can clearly detect moving across the room.

I’ve been told about subs from bass null cancelation tool. Even this can result in more airy and resolutive sound with better foundation and holographic sound.
It is a better cost solution than upgrading to bigger Reference One speakers.
Perlisten subs are very quick, push-pulled, and with astonishing low distortion.
I like the design as a tool, not searching more or boomy bass.
Although a little more bass to CR1 is welcome. As good as they are, they aren’t full range speaker.
As every component, i have to listen first a demo unit to test results before buying.

 

[cjf]

Hi everybody.
This is first time i consider seriously to add a sub to my beloved Tad CR1.
Perlisten subs are really interesting.
First, some info of D212s. The one i find best match for a 25m2 room.

View attachment 108635

View attachment 108636

The Home Audio Gear We Use & Love

Join Gene and Theo Nicolakis for this unique show to talk about the audio gear we use, how it enhances our musical and home theater experience, and why we lo...

www.youtube.com

Perlisten D215s: Is This the Most Accurate Subwoofer on the Planet?

Our review of the Perlisten D215s dual driver, push pull subwoofer proved it to be one of the most advanced and accurate on the planet per decibel of output as well as per cubic foot of space.

www.audioholics.com

I see claims on the company page for this sub model as having "minute distortion levels" but I see no distortion information about the built-in amplifier or sub itself listed anywhere. I could be blind and just missed it though?

For the asking price of this unit I would certainly want to know a bit more about the subs objective measured performance before making a decision on a possible purchase.

In case you are unaware, there are many "Known Good" Subs available for a fraction of the asking price of this unit. But, if you like the Perlisten nonetheless, I guess my only other advice would be to consider getting 2 x Single 12" driver units instead of a Double 12" driver unit all inside the same box. Reason being, you have more tuning flexibility with two separate boxes than you do with only one Sub. Maybe space is a concern though?

It appears you would need a 20A circuit to run the D212 while the Single 12" D12 can run on a regular 15A circuit.

 

[Stereophonic]

 

[cjf]

Looks pretty decent....until you get below 25hz then distortion starts to go thru the roof. That doesn't really surprise me but the performance below 25hz is a bit disappointing for the asking price.

This is one of many reasons why more than one sub is usually recommended. More subs operating at a lower workload each, but when combined and playing together, will be way cleaner sounding than trying to push one cabinet to its limits, especially from 25hz on down. Plus you lose out on the better placement options that multiple subs/cabinets bring to the table when only using one cabinet.

Low bass region THD percentages will go down as you start adding more than one sub/cabinets. I would also recommend starting with the largest driver subs your room can accommodate. The larger cone area will cause more disruption to Room modes without having to reach as far into the drivers excursion limits (assuming it has enough horsepower to begin with to properly drive the bigger cones) unlike a smaller Sub (12" is on the small side unless you have multiples of them). In my current listening room I would have no concerns from a performance standpoint running like 7-8 x 12" subs in place of the bigger ones I have now but why waste all that floor space.

If your limited in terms of available placement space then I would start here instead:

Rythmik Audio • Dual opposed 15" servo subwoofer G25HP

If you have some money to burn then I would start with two of these:

Classic - 18.0

Funk Audio - We create beautiful Custom Speakers and Subwoofers with a great Line of Products!

www.funkaudio.ca

This is all just IMO, IME while playing with Subs over the last several years. Your obviously free to buy and choose whatever you want but in my case I knew I was going to be running several subs so dropping my load on just one didn't make financial sense. For about $5K I ended up with 3 large displacement subs spread around the current room with a very satisfying level of bass output/SQ while maintaining low THD percentages into the single digits of the bass region.

 

[Stereophonic]

Due to space limitation, i’ll receive this week a D12S unit.

 

[LL21]

Looks pretty decent....until you get below 25hz then distortion starts to go thru the roof. That doesn't really surprise me but the performance below 25hz is a bit disappointing for the asking price.

This is one of many reasons why more than one sub is usually recommended. More subs operating at a lower workload each, but when combined and playing together, will be way cleaner sounding than trying to push one cabinet to its limits, especially from 25hz on down. Plus you lose out on the better placement options that multiple subs/cabinets bring to the table when only using one cabinet.

Low bass region THD percentages will go down as you start adding more than one sub/cabinets. I would also recommend starting with the largest driver subs your room can accommodate. The larger cone area will cause more disruption to Room modes without having to reach as far into the drivers excursion limits (assuming it has enough horsepower to begin with to properly drive the bigger cones) unlike a smaller Sub (12" is on the small side unless you have multiples of them). In my current listening room I would have no concerns from a performance standpoint running like 7-8 x 12" subs in place of the bigger ones I have now but why waste all that floor space.

If your limited in terms of available placement space then I would start here instead:

Rythmik Audio • Dual opposed 15" servo subwoofer G25HP

If you have some money to burn then I would start with two of these:

Classic - 18.0

Funk Audio - We create beautiful Custom Speakers and Subwoofers with a great Line of Products!

www.funkaudio.ca

This is all just IMO, IME while playing with Subs over the last several years. Your obviously free to buy and choose whatever you want but in my case I knew I was going to be running several subs so dropping my load on just one didn't make financial sense. For about $5K I ended up with 3 large displacement subs spread around the current room with a very satisfying level of bass output/SQ while maintaining low THD percentages into the single digits of the bass region.

Very interesting! I have spoken with Nathan who appears to be a very knowledgeable professional. He also has his flagship 18.2 dual-opposed single sub which has extraordinary measurements from what I have seen (and to a far more limited degree...understand).

And then there is something I have approached Nathan on a high level basis which is effectively a 24.2...a dual-opposed 24" inch pure-carbon fiber cone which has the same weight as a typical 18" cone with a 5,000 watt amp (instantaneous peak 21,000 or something). The goal is all-out assault performance in that sub 35hz range which, as you say, is loafing while deliver significantly greater air displacement than 4-6 x 18" cones let alone several 12".

I honestly dont have the technical know-how to understand if this is going to be magnificent or my own magnificent exercise in audio hubris. Nathan has been very supportive in explaining the how's and why's of what is likely to happen in terms of performance, sound, etc. But its still hard to 'hear it' in my mind without any kind of close proxy (other than having heard some seriously big speakers before like the Genesis Ones...which seem big for many reasons, not just their massive dual towers of 12" cones.)

 

[cjf]

Very interesting! I have spoken with Nathan who appears to be a very knowledgeable professional. He also has his flagship 18.2 dual-opposed single sub which has extraordinary measurements from what I have seen (and to a far more limited degree...understand).

And then there is something I have approached Nathan on a high level basis which is effectively a 24.2...a dual-opposed 24" inch pure-carbon fiber cone which has the same weight as a typical 18" cone with a 5,000 watt amp (instantaneous peak 21,000 or something). The goal is all-out assault performance in that sub 35hz range which, as you say, is loafing while deliver significantly greater air displacement than 4-6 x 18" cones let alone several 12".

I honestly dont have the technical know-how to understand if this is going to be magnificent or my own magnificent exercise in audio hubris. Nathan has been very supportive in explaining the how's and why's of what is likely to happen in terms of performance, sound, etc. But its still hard to 'hear it' in my mind without any kind of close proxy (other than having heard some seriously big speakers before like the Genesis Ones...which seem big for many reasons, not just their massive dual towers of 12" cones.)

I do like some of the dual opposed Subs out there and almost bought the Rythmik G25HP back when I first was exploring the idea of purchasing Subs for my system. In hindsight, I should have started with 2 x G25HP's instead of 2 x E15HP2's. I knew this as soon as I started shopping for my third Sub which was larger than the first two were.

I think if I had 3 x G25HP's I would be quite happy and they would only occupy slightly more space than the current three I have now but with quite a bit more Cone area (1060 vs 608).

A larger dual opposed Sub more than 15" is not very common to find out in the wild but they do exist depending on your budget (think Magico's offering..etc).

The single driver 22-24" units you mention are pretty cool if you have the floor space for them. I certainly wouldn't complain with multiple 22-24" Subs in my listening room, that's for sure.

The amplifiers required to properly power some of these bigger units though ca be a problem to implement in your typical household depending on available slots in your main electrical panel.

The Dual Perlisten 12" unit initially mentioned in this thread needs a 20A 120v circuit to run. If a company is advertising wattages well over 2400watts then your looking at 230v 30A circuits likely being needed to power them properly.

I guess the question then becomes, is it even worth it? If you have plenty of available 15A plugs/slots in the main panel and the available floor space to begin with then it may just be easier to add additional smaller Subs (say 18" and under) then to pay for all the electrical work.

 

[LL21]

I do like some of the dual opposed Subs out there and almost bought the Rythmik G25HP back when I first was exploring the idea of purchasing Subs for my system. In hindsight, I should have started with 2 x G25HP's instead of 2 x E15HP2's. I knew this as soon as I started shopping for my third Sub which was larger than the first two were.

I think if I had 3 x G25HP's I would be quite happy and they would only occupy slightly more space than the current three I have now but with quite a bit more Cone area (1060 vs 608).

A larger dual opposed Sub more than 15" is not very common to find out in the wild but they do exist depending on your budget (think Magico's offering..etc).

The single driver 22-24" units you mention are pretty cool if you have the floor space for them. I certainly wouldn't complain with multiple 22-24" Subs in my listening room, that's for sure.

The amplifiers required to properly power some of these bigger units though ca be a problem to implement in your typical household depending on available slots in your main electrical panel.

The Dual Perlisten 12" unit initially mentioned in this thread needs a 20A 120v circuit to run. If a company is advertising wattages well over 2400watts then your looking at 230v 30A circuits likely being needed to power them properly.

I guess the question then becomes, is it even worth it? If you have plenty of available 15A plugs/slots in the main panel and the available floor space to begin with then it may just be easier to add additional smaller Subs (say 18" and under) then to pay for all the electrical work.

Thank you! Fascinating reading! I read it 3 times!

 

[henrich3]

Very interesting! I have spoken with Nathan who appears to be a very knowledgeable professional. He also has his flagship 18.2 dual-opposed single sub which has extraordinary measurements from what I have seen (and to a far more limited degree...understand).

And then there is something I have approached Nathan on a high level basis which is effectively a 24.2...a dual-opposed 24" inch pure-carbon fiber cone which has the same weight as a typical 18" cone with a 5,000 watt amp (instantaneous peak 21,000 or something). The goal is all-out assault performance in that sub 35hz range which, as you say, is loafing while deliver significantly greater air displacement than 4-6 x 18" cones let alone several 12".

I honestly dont have the technical know-how to understand if this is going to be magnificent or my own magnificent exercise in audio hubris. Nathan has been very supportive in explaining the how's and why's of what is likely to happen in terms of performance, sound, etc. But its still hard to 'hear it' in my mind without any kind of close proxy (other than having heard some seriously big speakers before like the Genesis Ones...which seem big for many reasons, not just their massive dual towers of 12" cones.)

Funk Audio subs can't be beat IMO. Here are mine -

Dual 18" in brindle bamboo veneer -

Quad 18" in a quilted bubinga veneer -

 

[Stereophonic]

Fun has arrived !!!!

 

[Stereophonic]

Amazing curve !!!!

 

[Solypsa]

Amazing curve !!!!

True that. But what are we looking at? -6db at like 7hz? Measured how?

 

[Stereophonic]

True that. But what are we looking at? -6db at like 7hz? Measured how?

I don’t care about measurements…
It is hard to believe so lineal curve.
Anyway, it is nice….

 

[henrich3]

True that. But what are we looking at? -6db at like 7hz? Measured how?

OmniMic mic at the MLP. No smoothing.

To flatten / lift the low end response, each sub's internal PEQ has a low shelf filter @ 20 Hz, and I've also configured a 15 Hz low shelf filter in my Altitude. These subs naturally roll off below 50 Hz, but the LS filters & some room gain provide a very nice low end response. (80 Hz crossover.) Adding the filters does significantly reduce their max SPL, but with six 18" drivers and four 2400 Watt amps driving them, they can still play louder than I care to listen. I'm very happy with their performance.

I run the subs a little hot. Here's a full range chart (1/6th smoothing) for context -

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/funk-audio-fw18.0-subwoofer

 

[DasguteOhr]

With a double bass line aray front and back wall you get clean 7hz with max soundpressure.you don't hear it, it feels scary. I don't need something like that, 30 Hz with full sound pressure is enough for me.
Here the link how to build crazy

SBA mit 18 x Peerless XXLS12 (-3 dB @ 3,3 Hz)

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