Scare me away from tape...

[tubeman victor]

Listen to some 15 ips tape this week,and I,m hooked.

 

[MadFloyd]

Thanks for all the replies.

About 6 weeks or so ago I had an experience that made a huge impression on me. I was listening to Oscar Peterson and I was mesmerized by the vividness of the presentation. The source was tape. The system was damn good too - one of the best I have ever heard. I listened to several tapes that day (along with some vinyl) and haven't been able to get it out of my mind since.

I currently have a digital music server and a turntable. I relax a lot more when I listen to an LP and my music of choice is 50's jazz. Skipping songs is not at all a priority for me - in fact I prefer not being able to. Being able to get all the music I want on tape is also not a priority. Being able to get some classics/favorites is all I really want.

If I were to take the plunge I would definitely need to buy from someone I could trust. I am not a DIY'er.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thanks for all the replies.

About 6 weeks or so ago I had an experience that made a huge impression on me. I was listening to Oscar Peterson and I was mesmerized by the vividness of the presentation. The source was tape. The system was damn good too - one of the best I have ever heard. I listened to several tapes that day (along with some vinyl) and haven't been able to get it out of my mind since.

I currently have a digital music server and a turntable. I relax a lot more when I listen to an LP and my music of choice is 50's jazz. Skipping songs is not at all a priority for me - in fact I prefer not being able to. Being able to get all the music I want on tape is also not a priority. Being able to get some classics/favorites is all I really want.

If I were to take the plunge I would definitely need to buy from someone I could trust. I am not a DIY'er.

If you're up in Boston, you've always got Charlie King not so far away.

Get a Technics 1500, put new heads in it, wire it direct out and get an external tape pre. You'll never look back.

I think I heard you're getting Nick's phono section so you can also talk to him about getting you set up with a R2R front end. Then you can join the rest of us triple threats here!

Of course, you're not going to replace your LP/CD collection. But what you're going to have is a reference source of unparalleled dimensions.

 

[rockitman]

I relax a lot more when I listen to an LP and my music of choice is 50's jazz. Skipping songs is not at all a priority for me - in fact I prefer not being able to.

I can't ever imagine skipping a jazz tune from this era. Every song by most if not all the blue note artists is sublime.

 

[Bill Hart]

Can we put some rough numbers on the investment in a serious rig?
what's a studio level deck, refurbished with good outboard pre cost these days? I'm guessing ballpark 20-25k to do it right? (And up?)
the biggest issue to me would be availability and cost of source material- once i get ramped up on the biz rather than lawyer side of the music biz, i hope to have better access to tapes, but for new good quality 15 ips 1/2 track, aren't we talking 300-500 a tape if you subscribe to one of the groups?

 

[still-one]

I'll second Mark's comments! As a matter of fact, tape allows me to appreciate more of the composers or musicians intent than other other format. I'd rather have one Armani suit rather than 10 store brands.

Let me tell you. There's nothing like the WOW factor hearing Kenny Burrell on 15 ips tape. Ask Alex what he heard when I played the various rock 'n roll tapes when he was over a week or so ago. You can't separate the music from the sound. They are one and the same.

And as far as listening to my system rather than to the music, I'd say that 10,000 or so LPs says it all.

OMMV.

Sorry Myles, 10k LP's just tells me you are a music collector it says little about listening to music you enjoy. Owning an album you play once every five years holds little interest for me. I would rather give it away and search for new music.

Also, I grew up with the music of the 50, 60 & 70 and there was filler in just about every album from that era too. I think you may have selective memory about the good old days.

Jim

 

[Bruce B]

Can we put some rough numbers on the investment in a serious rig?
what's a studio level deck, refurbished with good outboard pre cost these days? I'm guessing ballpark 20-25k to do it right? (And up?)
the biggest issue to me would be availability and cost of source material- once i get ramped up on the biz rather than lawyer side of the music biz, i hope to have better access to tapes, but for new good quality 15 ips 1/2 track, aren't we talking 300-500 a tape if you subscribe to one of the groups?

I found an A80vu machine for $1500... which is probably a steel. I've seen several A80RC models for around $3500. New heads, rebuilt motors and a little massaging will be about $3 - $5k.

Technics decks can be had pretty cheap. I've seen them go for as low as $800. Put another $3k in them with an outboard pre ($2k - 10k) and you're set!

Subscribing to the Tape Project will cost you $300, non-subscribers will be $500.

 

[Bill Hart]

I found an A80vu machine for $1500... which is probably a steel. I've seen several A80RC models for around $3500. New heads, rebuilt motors and a little massaging will be about $3 - $5k.

Technics decks can be had pretty cheap. I've seen them go for as low as $800. Put another $3k in them with an outboard pre ($2k - 10k) and you're set!

Subscribing to the Tape Project will cost you $300, non-subscribers will be $500.

If and when i make the jump, I'd be inclined to go for a studio grade machine. The price of entry you described is extremely reasonable, and I gather you think that unit doesn't require a tweaked preamp stage to maximize? I guess the other issue is whether the studio machines require more maintenance than a pro-consumer unit. I would assume the big Studers, Ampexes, etc. were built to high standards, but my impression was that as work horses, they were constantly maintained.
BTW, thank you for the reply, Bruce.

 

[Bruce B]

If and when i make the jump, I'd be inclined to go for a studio grade machine. The price of entry you described is extremely reasonable, and I gather you think that unit doesn't require a tweaked preamp stage to maximize? I guess the other issue is whether the studio machines require more matinenance than a pro-consumer unit. I would assume the big Studers, Ampexes, etc. were built to high standards, but my impression was that as work horses, they were constantly maintained.

An A80RC or Ampex ATR-102 does not need an outboard pre, or at least I've never heard an outboard pre make it sound better. The Aria on the Ampex I feel makes it sound worse!

An A80vu machine would "probably" benefit from out outboard pre provided you can't get a good tech to rebuild the repro cards.

Once you get them dialed in, there is no more maintenance than a turntable. Just clean the heads/guides and use the calibration tape once in a while.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Sorry Myles, 10k LP's just tells me you are a music collector it says little about listening to music you enjoy. Owning an album you play once every five years holds little interest for me. I would rather give it away and search for new music.

Also, I grew up with the music of the 50, 60 & 70 and there was filler in just about every album from that era too. I think you may have selective memory about the good old days.

Jim

Actually you're missing a lot Jim. And what you're missing is that people buy multiple copies of a piece to compare performances. So when someone comes over, can pull all the performances off the shelf and listen to the interpretation.

And since when is playing something to death as opposed to listening to a wide variety of music any more a music lover than the other? Maybe playing something to death means you suffer from OCD.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I found an A80vu machine for $1500... which is probably a steel. I've seen several A80RC models for around $3500. New heads, rebuilt motors and a little massaging will be about $3 - $5k.

Technics decks can be had pretty cheap. I've seen them go for as low as $800. Put another $3k in them with an outboard pre ($2k - 10k) and you're set!

Subscribing to the Tape Project will cost you $300, non-subscribers will be $500.

I'd love to put my Technics machine with new heads and electronics against a studio machine--but obviously only for PB.

The beauty of the prosumer machine is that there's practically nothing to do; studio machines are a bit more complicated to operate and maintain.

 

[c1ferrari]

CooL

The two techs that I've used hailed from Record One in Hollywood, Alan Sides studio. They are both named Mike.... One I can't recall his last name worked on my A80 and the other Mike.. Mike Guerra is my ATR tech... They are both killer techs and I highly recommend both. Guerra's specialty is the ATR as he was responsible to keep all of Alan's ATR's up to spec at all times.

Bolois said my machine was a bit to old for his blood and suggested that I give the Record One techs a buzz....

Alas... Record One is no more but I still have these two on speed dial if needed!

In case, anyone reviews our posts for Studer and/or R2R techs -- I would be comfortable trying these folks for Studer technical assistance in southern California: Steve Anderson (SFV) and Dave Hecht (OC?). I remember talking with Dave, over the phone, when we experienced an earthquake. I mentioned it to Dave, then fairly shortly thereafter, his mentioning it up north.

We blithely resumed our conversation - LOL

 

[bblue]

An A80RC or Ampex ATR-102 does not need an outboard pre, or at least I've never heard an outboard pre make it sound better. The Aria on the Ampex I feel makes it sound worse!

An A80vu machine would "probably" benefit from out outboard pre provided you can't get a good tech to rebuild the repro cards.

Once you get them dialed in, there is no more maintenance than a turntable. Just clean the heads/guides and use the calibration tape once in a while.

It's well worth mentioning that you don't get the best playback, even with great outboard electronics, if you don't fine tune the head azimuth for the particular tape you're playing.

It would be nice to think that any professionally recorded master or dub would be of exactly the same alignment accuracy, but they aren't. Azimuth (and even HF & LF EQ) can vary from studio to studio, dub to dub. So many people trading dubs aren't even aware of alignment of the played tape before making a dub.

The problem is compounded by the likes of The Tape Project (and, to be fair, most other similar companies) that don't include calibration tones on their (very expensive) dubs.

To really hear what's there, you would be well served to learn how to use an XY oscilloscope/vectorscope (which compares left channel to right channel and produces what's known as a Lissajous pattern display) to tweak your head azimuth on any tape with HF tones (of at least 10KHz). Azimuth alignment can also be achieved without tones, but it's usually beyond the capabilities of most audiophiles. It's that last little step (sorta like SRA on a turntable) that makes the difference between an ordinary tape playback and an excellent one.

Of course, if you never adjust your azimuth to each tape, you might hear 40-50% of the tapes at their best, assuming your machine is right on with a standard alignment tape (MRL or equivalent).

--Bill

 

[MylesBAstor]

It's well worth mentioning that you don't get the best playback, even with great outboard electronics, if you don't fine tune the head azimuth for the particular tape you're playing.

It would be nice to think that any professionally recorded master or dub would be of exactly the same alignment accuracy, but they aren't. Azimuth (and even HF & LF EQ) can vary from studio to studio, dub to dub. So many people trading dubs aren't even aware of alignment of the played tape before making a dub.

The problem is compounded by the likes of The Tape Project (and, to be fair, most other similar companies) that don't include calibration tones on their (very expensive) dubs.

To really hear what's there, you would be well served to learn how to use an XY oscilloscope/vectorscope (which compares left channel to right channel and produces what's known as a Lissajous pattern display) to tweak your head azimuth on any tape with HF tones (of at least 10KHz). Azimuth alignment can also be achieved without tones, but it's usually beyond the capabilities of most audiophiles. It's that last little step (sorta like SRA on a turntable) that makes the difference between an ordinary tape playback and an excellent one.

Of course, if you never adjust your azimuth to each tape, you might hear 40-50% of the tapes at their best, assuming your machine is right on with a standard alignment tape (MRL or equivalent).

--Bill

The tape project does provide a calibration tape.

Tony at UltraAnalogue does provide test tones with his tapes.

If you talk to Brian Weitzel, you should have a different headstack for every tape (he has 24 right now).

 

[bblue]

The tape project does provide a calibration tape.

Yeah, you're right. Unfortunately, it doesn't agree with MRL tapes, AND WORSE, it often doesn't agree with their own dubs (which vary from project to project).

Tony at UltraAnalogue does provide test tones with his tapes.

Good Show! Opus three will provide alignment tones if you specifically request them. They agree closely with the MRL standard.

If you talk to Brian Weitzel, you should have a different headstack for every tape (he has 24 right now).

Yeah, I've heard that. Something about the specific material making up the laminations, coil wire, etc. I can imagine those things making a difference, but to what degree? It would be quite informative to know.

--Bill

 

[c1ferrari]

Azimuth alignment can also be achieved without tones, but it's usually beyond the capabilities of most audiophiles.

--Bill

Bill's an audiophile who knows how to do it -- azimuth alignment sans tones...that is :b
Happy Anniversary

 

[Bruce B]

And for people that don't have O-scopes, you can also do azimuth adjustments within certain software programs. I've also checked these against the hardware and they're spot-on.

 

[MylesBAstor]

And for people that don't have O-scopes, you can also do azimuth adjustments within certain software programs. I've also checked these against the hardware and they're spot-on.

And Charlie has a unique instrument whose name escapes me for aligning heads. Charlie?

 

[flez007]

I have just finished hearing the IFI tapes (the four of them) - great content, incredible Jazz, terrific tonality, you-are-there sensations all over. Yes, I have plenty of LPs and listen to them a lot (not as Myles owns of course ) all I can say is, for around 10% to 20% more of the cost of almost any of WBF members total system cost, bringing in an RtR takes out all the potential any given system is ready to deliver.

 

[rockitman]

Sound Technology 1500A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ8GmZ8tKIk

Hi Charles !!!