Ron’s New System

[Ron Resnick]

two people now, Don and Phil

Yes, but there's also a little bit of a disconnect which I take responsibility for in terms of my communication. Let's stipulate that visitors think that there is a little bit of compression at the highest peaks of my normal listening level on big classical. The mere fact of that is not dispositive for me, because I might very well accept a smidgen of compromise on big classical if I achieve greater emotional engagement with the majority of the music I listen to.

The reason this is so subjective and so fuzzy is because I don't want to accept several smidgeons of compromise on big classical. I may not listen to big classical much when I'm alone, but I really do love the few pieces I love, and I want them to sound damn convincing when I do listen to them.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Exactly, Ked thinks he knows a situation in depth that he was not present at and then proceeds to construct a strawman to knock down...even going so far to say that you should likely change your speakers (probably because he thinks they are not good or something.) to get an amp of the type you are considering.

I feel no disingenuousness in Ked's comments. I think Kedar and I are kind of talking past each other, but I think everything he says is in truly good faith and in honest opinion.

 

[Ron Resnick]

On musings . . . Yes, Kedar, you're right.

You took literally (and perfectly reasonably so) what I said a few days before which was me just in a stream of consciousness state not certain of the accuracy of what I was posting.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you, Peter. I think this is an accurate characterization.

The only thing I would quibble with is to substitute "preferences" for "beliefs." I have believed things (Pendragons need high power) which my preferences have proven to be incorrect.

I understand Ron. I remember posts from you about large scale requiring large speaker systems including height and if possible four towers. I had understood that to be more of a belief that a preference on your part.

 

[Kingrex]

There is not gonna be any difference in drive between those two based on power , quality of execution , topology or output toob type for sure giving a perceived difference in quality but not from a power drive Perspective ..!

3-4 times in power output for jump and drive differences, so if 70 watts is clipping go to 200 min or lower the volume ..!


Regards

I was wondering this the last few pages of read. Are watts really watts. I have heard 17 watts sound way more powerfull than 100. But what was I hearing. Midrange???

What do watts really matter. Unless you have lots of watts. Like 200, 300 or more. And even then. Is that higher number able to drive a speaker better than say 70 watts with a really good set of output transformers in a really well designed circuit. And, what does better really mean. Did you get bass grip but loose midrange magic.

I being biased of course, might also say you can look further back in the chain. Do you have a large isolation transformer globally powering your system. You might be very surprised in what it brings. The Torus units I have heard have all helped amplifiers to better dynamics, clarity and creation of a Real instrument sound. A lot of what your looking for.

 

[Ron Resnick]

So why are you reporting headroom issues with Jadis, and then considering amps that do not have as much drive

I agree with you that power (watts) and "drive" are related but are not the same thing. For example, I suspect that the transformer in the Elysium has more perceived "oomph" then its 70 watts would suggest.

 

[Ron Resnick]

In my own case, I got much more upper bass to lower midrange weightiness (when combined with presence, what some call mass) with serious changes to my power delivery and to a specific cartridge known for those qualities.

I understand. This is one reason I selected the Grado Epoch 3 for the second cartridge.

I was astonished with the results. It turned out that that specific goal could be addressed by looking at a different part of the system.

I am curious to know if you think what you are looking for is strictly an amplifier issue.

I think this is a very good question. It might be possible to skin this cat a number of different ways.

I could experiment with a warmer-sounding pre-amp for example.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Even if there are headroom problems at the top 1% of SPL that you would likely play, is it worth getting a poorer sounding amp for the other 99% just to have that 1% not compress (I don't think clipping actually happened...it is an unpleasant thing actual clipping)? I think not...

Far better to optimize for the other 99%...unless you have the budget to get something that sounds amazing and has the headroom...we both know that those likely don't exist...at least they don't to my satisfaction, I am very demanding on amplification.

This is how I am thinking.

 

[Audiohertz2]

I was wondering this the last few pages of read. Are watts really watts. I have heard 17 watts sound way more powerfull than 100. But what was I hearing. Midrange???

What do watts really matter. Unless you have lots of watts. Like 200, 300 or more. And even then. Is that higher number able to drive a speaker better than say 70 watts with a really good set of output transformers in a really well designed circuit. And, what does better really mean. Did you get bass grip but loose midrange magic.

I being biased of course, might also say you can look further back in the chain. Do you have a large isolation transformer globally powering your system. You might be very surprised in what it brings. The Torus units I have heard have all helped amplifiers to better dynamics, clarity and creation of a Real instrument sound. A lot of what your looking for.

Isolating the discussion to watts only and since most domestic listening is done at .5-2 watts avg RMS most amplifiers will be able to get to the same perceived loudness level , dynamic Drive and flow will come from the available wattage in reserve ..!

Regards

 

[Audiohertz2]

Even if there are headroom problems at the top 1% of SPL that you would likely play, is it worth getting a poorer sounding amp for the other 99% just to have that 1% not compress (I don't think clipping actually happened...it is an unpleasant thing actual clipping)? I think not...

Far better to optimize for the other 99%...unless you have the budget to get something that sounds amazing and has the headroom...we both know that those likely don't exist...at least they don't to my satisfaction, I am very demanding on amplification.

Depends on amp output stage design for eg Toobs clip much differently than SS so if both amplfiers are clipping your choice would be the Toobs..!

Of course SS amps can be designed to have benign type clipping NAD and Charlie Hansen’s design do so , on these designs as well as toobs clipping is usually noted as a darkening or softening of dynamics , excessive clipping is when its as you describe ..!

On most low THD SS designs , clipping is hard as hard and edgy as the amp transition suddenly from very low THD to very high ..!

This can be avoided if you match amp to load , use the 33% rule for power needed and there will be no issues ..!

So 100 watts to avoid clipping , 300/300 is desired ..!


Regards

 

[Audiohertz2]

This is a mischaracterization. Only Phil, playing at deafening volume, believed he heard some compression.

The fact that the sound didn't fall apart leads me to the opposite conclusion as you -- it actually gives me encouragement that I might be able to go down to 50 watts (with good drive).

When dealing with and comparing Toob amps best to compare rated power numbers with the same level of thd ..

 

[Mendel]

1. Meddle
2. Wish You Were Here
3. Animals
4 . Dark Side Of The Moon

Absolutely agree!

 

[morricab]

When dealing with and comparing Toob amps best to compare rated power numbers with the same level of thd ..

Geddes and Cheever (and others, dating back to the 1930s) have found that there is essentially no correlation between THD or IMD and subjective sound quality. The composition of the distortion is far more important than the amount.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Geddes and Cheever (and others, dating back to the 1930s) have found that there is essentially no correlation between THD or IMD and subjective sound quality. The composition of the distortion is far more important than the amount.

Agree on sound quality, real or perceived , but when comparing power its necessary for comparative sakes ..!

So 50 watts @ 1%thd vs 50 watts @ 10% thd does not a comparison makes ..!


Regards

 

[morricab]

Agree on sound quality, real or perceived , but when comparing power its necessary for comparative sakes ..!

So 50 watts @ 1%thd vs 50 watts @ 10% thd does not a comparison makes ..!


Regards

Yes, the 10% THD amp might sound better!

 

[SlapEcho]

I feel no disingenuousness in Ked's comments. I think Kedar and I are kind of talking past each other, but I think everything he says is in truly good faith and in honest opinion.

Geez, with what is usually a good source of entertainment, I can usually follow the story line. Now even I'm getting confused between facetiousness or the normal forum cordial love/hate relationship.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Yes, the 10% THD amp might sound better!

 

[Kingrex]

Ron,
Are you personally experiencing anything in your system that bothers you? Or are you concerned others said the headroom is possibly limited when playing louder than you ever would. Its hare to tell from all the back an forth.

FWIW, I don't let people mess with my volume if I feel they are at potential to damage my gear. Guest should not abuse your equipment for their pleasure. I could turn my volume up louder than I ever personally would. But I do not. I would not let other do as such either. Guest should have respect of the host equipment. Unless of course they want to leave a credit card at the door to pay for damages due to their negligent behavior.

But really, if your system sings and your happy with it, except for the very occasional instance when someone is over and wants to attempt taxing the system beyond normal use, then don't worry about it. From what I see, you have an over the top excellent system. Enjoy if for some amount of years before you make any real changes. fiddle with some fuses, cartridges, new tapes etc. Don't sweat the amps and rest of it all.

 

[Al M.]

Ron,
Are you personally experiencing anything in your system that bothers you? Or are you concerned others said the headroom is possibly limited when playing louder than you ever would. Its hare to tell from all the back an forth.

FWIW, I don't let people mess with my volume if I feel they are at potential to damage my gear. Guest should not abuse your equipment for their pleasure. I could turn my volume up louder than I ever personally would. But I do not. I would not let other do as such either. Guest should have respect of the host equipment. Unless of course they want to leave a credit card at the door to pay for damages due to their negligent behavior.

But really, if your system sings and your happy with it, except for the very occasional instance when someone is over and wants to attempt taxing the system beyond normal use, then don't worry about it. From what I see, you have an over the top excellent system. Enjoy if for some amount of years before you make any real changes. fiddle with some fuses, cartridges, new tapes etc. Don't sweat the amps and rest of it all.

Your post is eminently reasonable.

 

[Sampajanna]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, Ron, but to state the obvious: why not try an Apex with your speakers?