Robert Harleys 'listening room

[Gregadd]

 

[Lee]

I have been there. It is an excellent sounding room. Art Noxon design.

 

[microstrip]

Good and informative video. Thanks!

 

[Bobvin]

What I don’t understand fully is why such a “well engineered” room needs further sound attenuation absorbers / diffusors. In my opinion the Noxon approach is difficient. Sure, the room is isolated and the walls don’t ring, but after such expense and consideration of details adding ugly panels to the room seems wrong to me. You mean I have to move the absorber/diffusor out of the way to find my LP or CD, are you kidding me?

One of the primary goals of my own room design was never having to look at recording studio sound attenuation add-ons. Or, look for example at the new Magico showroom, sure the walls look more like a recording studio, but with an aesthetic that produces an overall harmonious gestalt.

The Harley room in no way reflects the aesthetic of his beautiful southwestern adobe style home. I personally would want to bring that design aesthetic into my room, and I’d for sure want to look out on nature while listening. A missed opportunity IMHO. Building a room from scratch means I have the ability to include those details in the planning phase.

 

[microstrip]

What I don’t understand fully is why such a “well engineered” room needs further sound attenuation absorbers / diffusors. In my opinion the Noxon approach is difficient. Sure, the room is isolated and the walls don’t ring, but after such expense and consideration of details adding ugly panels to the room seems wrong to me. You mean I have to move the absorber/diffusor out of the way to find my LP or CD, are you kidding me?

One of the primary goals of my own room design was never having to look at recording studio sound attenuation add-ons. Or, look for example at the new Magico showroom, sure the walls look more like a recording studio, but with an aesthetic that produces an overall harmonious gestalt.

The Harley room in no way reflects the aesthetic of his beautiful southwestern adobe style home. I personally would want to bring that design aesthetic into my room, and I’d for sure want to look out on nature while listening. A missed opportunity IMHO. Building a room from scratch means I have the ability to include those details in the planning phase.

As you I hate seeing absorbers, diffusors or any kind of acoustic treatment in my room - I love my paintings, wall lamps, masks and the full shelves of my room. The front wall was completely treated with RPG panels, absorbers and bass traps, but they were hidden by nice acoustic curtains covering the full wall. Surely the system is removed from view, staying on the left side.

However some people think differently - their passion for this hobby makes them like the "studio" looks of their listening room. Also Robert Hartley is a professional reviewer - I think he needs some treatment that can be easily and quickly modified, in order to optimize the sound of speakers with different dispersion and characteristics coming to his room - in my room switching between Aida's, XLF or Soundlab's involved large changes behind the curtains!

BTW, my dream room is like Robert Aikman Robertson SME music room - the speakers and amplifiers were hidden behind acoustic curtains, https://www.analoguefoundation.com/analogue-sound-lifestyle/826/ but without the British empire style decoration!

 

[thedudeabides]

To Bobvin. Very confused as to purpose of your post. If Mr. Harley likes it, isn't that really all that matters? And why should he care what you think?

 

[Another Johnson]

My reaction was that this is a huge step up from many rooms used for equipment reviews.

Everyone loved Dick Olsher. He was frank, pragmatic, and opinionated.

If you ever saw his listening room, you would wonder about how what he was hearing was related to what you would hear.

JGH’s room wasn’t near optimal either, but this didn’t stop him from sharing his thoughts.

The room is a huge factor in how a system sounds. RH recognizes this and has done his best to neutralize it. Congratulations to him.

 

[Bobvin]

To Bobvin. Very confused as to purpose of your post. If Mr. Harley likes it, isn't that really all that matters? And why should he care what you think?

My criticism is the Noxon model is incomplete, and the result is a room that does not help any fellow lobbying his wife for a purpose built room. My wife said sure, we can add the expense of your spanky listening room, but it has to look nice and at least reflect the overall aesthetic of our home.

The architecture of the desert southwest and the adobe aesthetic is beautiful (to me). Maybe the adobe design is only on the outside of his home, and the interior has none of those cues though I doubt it. His listening room has none of those elements so the room would be a complete change of the whole gestalt of the architecture of his home. As I said, is my opinion he missed an opportunity. Why not a beautifully designed and appointed room that sounds amazing and fits with the whole desert southwest gestalt? Harley went to a “professional” (Noxon) for the acoustics, and could have easily hired an interior designer.

There is so much beauty in the architecture of that part of the country, but none of it in his room. Sad.

 

[Lee]

I can add this observation. Robert’s room actually fits quite well with the rest of his house. It is also very comfortable.

The room treatments are really in an off white color so they actually blend in with the rest of the room.

Most important of all is that the room sounds wonderful. Wait till you see the upcoming video of the equipment he has.

I suspect they will do Jacob Heilbrunn’s room next…and that is really cool.

 

[Carlos269]

My criticism is the Noxon model is incomplete, and the result is a room that does not help any fellow lobbying his wife for a purpose built room. My wife said sure, we can add the expense of your spanky listening room, but it has to look nice and at least reflect the overall aesthetic of our home.

The architecture of the desert southwest and the adobe aesthetic is beautiful (to me). Maybe the adobe design is only on the outside of his home, and the interior has none of those cues though I doubt it. His listening room has none of those elements so the room would be a complete change of the whole gestalt of the architecture of his home. As I said, is my opinion he missed an opportunity. Why not a beautifully designed and appointed room that sounds amazing and fits with the whole desert southwest gestalt? Harley went to a “professional” (Noxon) for the acoustics, and could have easily hired an interior designer.

There is so much beauty in the architecture of that part of the country, but none of it in his room. Sad.

Bob, I have attempted to explain this several times on this forum, there is no such thing as “set and forget” room acoustics and whatever engineered room was implemented is no “one size fits all”. It’s physics, acoustics and psychoacoustics so it doesn’t work the way that you think. Your room, as well as all other engineered rooms, are not optimized for your system or for any other systems. Robert Hartley appears to understand this. By engineering it, it give the room a fighting chance by choosing the dimensions that drive the room modes to where they are least offensive and it dampen the walls to absorb energy, but beyond that, an engineered room is still a room, no matter how well engineered it is. You have it in your head that an engineered room is a solution; but to which problem? This is why I constantly state that engineered rooms are a waste of money and do not deliver on their promises. To do it it correctly, an engineered room would implement a large number of automated acoustic louvers and would have to be programmed for active adaptive response. Anyone have, see or hear of one of these types of engineered listening rooms? No, because this requires the kind of investment and engineering that is suitable for refined concert halls and not for homes.

 

[Gregadd]

Bob, I have attempted to explain this several times on this forum, there is no such thing as a set and forget room acoustics and whatever engineered room was implemented is no “one size fits all”. It’s physics, acoustics and psychoacoustics so it doesn’t work the way that you think. ToYour room, as well as all other engineered rooms, are not optimized for your system or for any other systems. Robert Hartley appears to understand this. By engineering it, it give the room a fighting chance by choosing the dimensions that drive the room modes to where they are least offensive and it dampen the walls to absorb energy, but beyond that, a room is sill a room, no matter how well engineered it is. You have it in your head that an engineered room is a solution; but to which problem? This is why I constantly state that engineered rooms are a waste of money and do not deliver on their promises. To do it it correctly, an engineer room would implement a large number of automated acoustic louvers and would have to be programmed for active adaptive response. Anyone have, see or hear of one of these types of engineered listening rooms? No, because this requires the kind of investment and engineering that is suitable for refined concert halls and not for homes.

To put in the vernacular,
,No matter , how good your tuna net is some tuna will slip through and some dolphins will be caught.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

To put in the vernacular,
,No matter , how good your tuna net is some tuna will slip through and some dolphins will be caught.

Yikes hate it when Dolphins or Porpoises are caught, Dolphin fish okay.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I totally applaud Robert for learning about listening room design and build options, and for selecting what he believes are the best solutions and executing to build a dedicated listening room. (And, personally, I'm envious that his room is a wonderfully long 28 feet!)

Having the ability to be flexible and to add additional acoustic treatment even to a purpose built listening room makes sense to me, especially in Robert's case, because he is going to have an endless parade of loudspeakers through the room. How can one solve a 100% comprehensive acoustics equation if one doesn't even know the speakers one is working with?

 

[Elliot G.]

I totally applaud Robert for learning about listening room design and build options, and for selecting what he believes are the best solutions and executing to build a dedicated listening room. (And, personally, I'm envious that his room is a wonderfully long 28 feet!)

Having the ability to be flexible and to add additional acoustic treatment even to a purpose built listening room makes sense to me, especially in Robert's case, because he is going to have an endless parade of loudspeakers through the room. How can one solve a 100% comprehensive acoustics equation if one doesn't even know the speakers one is working with?

Exactly Ron,
Different speakers get placed in different positions and have different characteristics as to how they work. The reflection points are going to vary based on where the speakers are placed , where the seating position ends up and so there is no one size fits all. How do you account for every possibility in design? you can't.

BTW I was in Roberts home and the room and the system sounded very good. The way a room looks is personal however he is a reviewer and needs flexibility that most would not require.

 

[Bobvin]

Bob, I have attempted to explain this several times on this forum, there is no such thing as a set and forget room acoustics and whatever engineered room was implemented is no “one size fits all”. It’s physics, acoustics and psychoacoustics so it doesn’t work the way that you think. Your room, as well as all other engineered rooms, are not optimized for your system or for any other systems. Robert Hartley appears to understand this. By engineering it, it give the room a fighting chance by choosing the dimensions that drive the room modes to where they are least offensive and it dampen the walls to absorb energy, but beyond that, a room is sill a room, no matter how well engineered it is. You have it in your head that an engineered room is a solution; but to which problem? This is why I constantly state that engineered rooms are a waste of money and do not deliver on their promises. To do it it correctly, an engineer room would implement a large number of automated acoustic louvers and would have to be programmed for active adaptive response. Anyone have, see or hear of one of these types of engineered listening rooms? No, because this requires the kind of investment and engineering that is suitable for refined concert halls and not for homes.

Oh nay nay… I am not of the opinion an engineered room is the final word. Every engineering solution is a set of compromises. But my room after it was gutted and rebuilt is far superior to what it was before. Compromises for sure, my budget was not unlimited. But I have also had four completely different speaker designs in the room (Wilson Alexia, Alsyvox Botticelli, Bayz Counterpoint, and Diesis Roma) and other than placement no additional tweaking necessary. And it is a warm and inviting environment. The engineer says she designs to make a room sound good, but feel good as well. And I wanted one that also looked nice (and pleased my wife!)

Fortunately for me, I am not obsessive and constantly fussing — I am about enjoying and sharing music. My room for sure sounds different from, for example, PeterA’s room. I don’t make any claim I have the “best” room or the answer to anything. But I will argue an engineered room can and should look like a warm and inviting space you’d want to spend time in. But those are my criteria, not everyone will agree.

I‘m not a photographer, so the picture below I needed to pump up the room lights to grab a morning photo — but no way I’d give up my view to chase the last degree of sonic “perfection”. Others feel differently I’m sure.

 

[Carlos269]

How can one solve a 100% comprehensive acoustics equation if one doesn't even know the speakers one is working with?

Or speakers and electronics that will be used in the room in the future. The flexibility is not “baked in” with dedicated bespoke engineered rooms. It is painfully obvious that the original design is not even aimed to address the owners’ current, at the time of the build, system, yet alone any future changes in equipment or room outfitting.

 

[Bobvin]

Or speakers and electronics that will be used in the room in the future. The flexibility is not “baked in” with dedicated bespoke engineered rooms. It is painfully obvious that the original design is not even aimed to address the owners’ current, at the time of the build, system, yet alone any future changes in equipment or room outfitting.

A room designed for one set of speakers is not what I would call a well engineered room, for the reasons you mention. Other than knowing my room would always be setup so that I could enjoy the view, which meant the speakers would be placed in at least similar configuration, a primary design goal was to be able to have the highly reflective glass of the picture window and two doors be incorporated and dealt with in the acoustic model. A ported box speaker (Wilson), a dipole planer, an omni directional, and a horn / open-baffle hybrid all sound spectacular in the room. That could never have happened if the design was specific to the Wilson speakers.

 

[Carlos269]

A room designed for one set of speakers is not what I would call a well engineered room, for the reasons you mention. Other than knowing my room would always be setup so that I could enjoy the view, which meant the speakers would be placed in at least similar configuration, a primary design goal was to be able to have the highly reflective glass of the picture window and two doors be incorporated and dealt with in the acoustic model. A ported box speaker (Wilson), a dipole planer, an omni directional, and a horn / open-baffle hybrid all sound spectacular in the room. That could never have happened if the design was specific to the Wilson speakers.

I get the feeling that most people that spend on a dedicated bespoke engineered room are under the belief that they are getting an optimized solution; they are obviously not and that is where do not meet expectations comes in. You are arguing both sides of the coin here. If all you want is a nice looking room with a view then there are many contractors for that type of build out that are not specialized but to whom you an be given guidance and direction to. So which one is it? Is your engineered room any different than a well thought out DIY room? I have made no attempt to address the room and I believe that the sound of my systems speak for themselves. Some times it pays off to be smarter than to reach for your wallet.

 

[Lee]

I get the feeling that most people that spend on a dedicated bespoke engineered room are under the belief that they are getting an optimized solution; they are obviously not and that is where first meet expectations comes in. You are arguing both sides of the coin here. If all you want is a nice looking room with a view then there are many contractors for that type of build out that are not specialized but can be given guidance and direction. So which one is it? Is your engineered room any different than a well thought out DIY room? I have made no attempt to address the room and I believe that the sound of my systems speak for themselves. Some times it pays of to be smarter than to reach for your wallet.

I am not sure I agree. A well engineered room will sound better with every speaker in theory and practice. There is such a thing as having proper dimensions, controlling bass better, etc.

I have heard a lot of DIY rooms and the engineered rooms like Harley's and Hugh's are always much better.

Also, you don't know what a well engineered room would do for your system if you have never tried it...even it the system sounds good already.

 

[Carlos269]

I am not sure I agree. A well engineered room will sound better with every speaker in theory and practice. There is such a thing as having proper dimensions, controlling bass better, etc.

I have heard a lot of DIY rooms and the engineered rooms like Harley's and Hugh's are always much better.

Also, you don't know what a well engineered room would do for your system if you have never tried it...even it the system sounds good already.

Lee, my background is in physics & electrical engineering and I have done work in the field of acoustics so I believe that I know what I’m talking about. I have posted countless videos of my systems here, while Magico refuses or prohibits videos of the M9, in “world class” engineered rooms, to be recorded or posted.

For expediency, how about this, ask Hugh to post a video of his system, in his engineered room, playing a song that he fills best showcases his system & room and I will post one of my systems playing the same recording and let us all judge how they compare.