Raidho speakers SPL Limited; Company admits; Egg on face of many…

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Reading this thread, i am struck by something that no one seems to have mentioned....and perhaps nobody that owns Raidho's cares about. That thing is factory QC. Why did Raidho release an apparently faulty design/product in the first place IF they had sufficient QC in place?
Or is this aspect irrelevant given the response that Raiho gave to their customer's after the fact:confused:
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Geez Miles, stop injecting reality and common sense into these threads. You know how much certain individuals enjoy stirring the pot to see what they can get going. ;)

Still-one, calling me names is childish and medieval. If you don't like my threads, don't read them. If you do read them and participate, please be direct with your ideas, expand on them, and develop them.

To restate, I strongly disagree with what you and others consider "common sense". Playwright George Bernard Shaw once put it: “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” If I am acting like the "unreasonable man", it's about time someone does. I think it's pathetic that so many audiophiles consider very expensive speakers not being able to play at 90db, is just ok. Just because things used to break down a lot 30 or 40 years ago all the time, doesn't mean we still have to put up with this today.

Why are audiophiles acting like abused wives? What's wrong with raising expectations? High end audio should not be a 3rd world experience in this day and age.
 

Rufus McDufus

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Aug 14, 2013
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Why are audiophiles acting like abused wives? What's wrong with raising expectations? High end audio should not be a 3rd world experience in this day and age.

caesar - I think you were right to bring up this subject (I wasn't aware of it but thankfully it doesn't affect my speakers), but to compare a problem with some Raidho speakers having an issue playing music over 90dB and Raidho's subsequent reaction to it (which most owners affected appear to be very pleased with) to a '3rd world experience' makes out that you're over-exaggerating for effect. This situation is very probably the ultimate example of that horribly over-used phrase 'first world problem'.
 

amirm

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Although the cost absorption being discussed would be by the manufacturer rather than the dealer?
So need to base the profit upon pre distribution price vs manufacturing/logistic costs (good manufacturers in general can achieve 35% to 45% margins on a product line based upon cost sold to distribution/sales channel, leaving technology manufacturers out of it due to massive product margins they can achieve and also car manufacturers who are at the much lower end of profit margin scale).
Apologies if missing the context of your post Amir.
Cheers
Orb
I think both the dealer and manufacturer should burden the cost of providing white glove service to pack and ship the speakers to the manufacturer. That way, the customer is not liable for how it is shipped back to them. Proper crate will be used as the unit was shipped to ensure that. In some cases these products require custom crates and such which must be used to protect the gear.
 

Rufus McDufus

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I agrre Amir. While it's good that Raidho are covering repair/upgrade (whatever you like to call it) and one way shipping, I really feel they just go the whole hog and deal with the situation end-to-end. Also would it not expedite things if local dealers (even if just one dealer per region where there are significant owners) be trained up to make the modification or is it too complex? This would save on shipping costs, and just as importantly to owners, shipping time.
 

Orb

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I think both the dealer and manufacturer should burden the cost of providing white glove service to pack and ship the speakers to the manufacturer. That way, the customer is not liable for how it is shipped back to them. Proper crate will be used as the unit was shipped to ensure that. In some cases these products require custom crates and such which must be used to protect the gear.

Yeah totally agree with you.
Or manufacturer and distributor (that in theory should be there to support the dealers).
Cheers
Orb
 

microstrip

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I think we lack the details needed to comment this particular situation. As far as I could see Raidho speakers are being sold cheaper in the US than in Denamark, and the factory is dealing directly with this situation. According to the other forum they are offering more to customers than just repairing a design fault, incorporating new developments, perhaps to compensate them for the burden of paying the shipping. All the customers seem to be very happy with the deal. Unless I know more facts, for me it is an happy end.
 

mep

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The thing I find kind of funny is that those who are making the most noise about what Raidho should do are those who don't own the speakers and aren't impacted. Those who do own the speakers and are impacted seem to be happy with their treatment. Who are we (the non-owners) to judge if the owners are happy?
 

zztop7

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What about the owners/listeners who prefer volume at low & medium levels [NOT 1000 horsepower down the cables] ???

If I was an above owner I would be concerned about updates not having the tone that I was satisfied with. I would leave mine alone until I heard other people's results & they would need to be dramatically better. New & updated is not always better.

zz.
 

asiufy

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The thing I find kind of funny is that those who are making the most noise about what Raidho should do are those who don't own the speakers and aren't impacted. Those who do own the speakers and are impacted seem to be happy with their treatment. Who are we (the non-owners) to judge if the owners are happy?

C'mon, this one's easy. If I were an owner, I'd be very happy too. A fix is better than no fix, or better than dumping the speaker on the used market in disgust.
That doesn't mean the manufacturer couldn't have offered a better deal for the fix, and make customers even happier.


alexandre
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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What about the owners/listeners who prefer volume at low & medium levels [NOT 1000 horsepower down the cables] ???

If I was an above owner I would be concerned about updates not having the tone that I was satisfied with. I would leave mine alone until I heard other people's results & they would need to be dramatically better. New & updated is not always better.

zz.

Sometimes it's quality over quantity, microdynamics over dynamics for realism. YMMV.....
 

danielk141

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Mar 13, 2012
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The "fix" may be better across the board, or anything down to a mild but noticeable change in the speaker.
The "Audiophile" reality is probably going to be anyone selling a pair of affected Raidhos from now on will have an easier sell, with the modification done....
 

caesar

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caesar - I think you were right to bring up this subject (I wasn't aware of it but thankfully it doesn't affect my speakers), but to compare a problem with some Raidho speakers having an issue playing music over 90dB and Raidho's subsequent reaction to it (which most owners affected appear to be very pleased with) to a '3rd world experience' makes out that you're over-exaggerating for effect. This situation is very probably the ultimate example of that horribly over-used phrase 'first world problem'.

Rufus, I know what you mean, but I never bought into this type of guilt. In fact I was thinking the same when I was typing up post # 27, which I re-pasted below. As a child, I lived in the 3rd world, and it is HELL. I also lived in poverty for a few years in the first world, and it sure is a whole lot better than living in the 3rd world because you can see and get to the greener pastures. I don’t feel any acute or painful guilt about living in the first world.

And I don’t believe succeeding and owning expensive gear is a sin. A one-year-old baby in a country at war is not responsible for chemical weapons used there. I’ll let some pop star, politician, or actress (and many audiophiles and reviewers) feel guilty. Many of them feel they do not deserve their gains and notoriety, and they are not entitled to happiness. Why be at war with ourselves over things we cannot directly control? I would rather experience joy and pleasure rather than guilt. I only feel guilt for not living up to my standards that I respect.


Furthermore, demanding higher standards is a sign of progress, not birthright or privilege. The developed world wouldn't have had high end audio if there was no progress anyways. I just think of the life I once had, and then kick back and enjoy my system to the fullest.

_______________________________________________

Gentlemen,

By all accounts, these are great speakers. Unlike many other hyped up products, many of which are just flashes in the pan, this one appeals not just to one individual’s tastes who writes a rave review, but positives are coming from a broad section of guys with various tastes.

And I understand all points of view:
- Small company struggling to make it, succeed, and do right by customers.
- Reviewers, who feel sincere passion for a product, and are glamorizing the speaker as a hot new product that will take us to bliss on an escapist fantasy.

But I am on the side of the customer, whose imagination and psychology has been excited and who is longing for great sound and as a result shelling out big bucks to get at that fantasy painted by the reviewers and fellow audiophiles.

Yes counting our blessings and being grateful for what our life is compared to what many in the world experience on a daily basis is dandy. Yet just a few centuries back, things weren't as dandy for us either. When you turn on the water today, we expect it to be not brown, stinky, and infected with bacteria, but clean. And when we turn on the lights, we expect the electricity to flow and the light to work. Similarly, a highly publicized, very expensive speaker is expected to work as promised!!!! Just because other audio companies have screwed up in the past, including one of the brands I currently own, doesn't mean we have to expect less! So why demand less??????? What’s wrong with expecting more and pushing the envelope?!!!!

We are a small clan of dinosaurs living in a perilous, sparsely populated, hidden jungle. This is a small community, and we need to watch each other’s’ backs, hence this thread. We, as customers, should be fiercely demanding!!! And the companies we buy from and the reviewers we take cues from should be equally fiercely demanding. High end audio should work as our basic utilities do. Every improvement, every change, and every innovation begins with some kind of dissatisfaction with the status quo. If we just sit and take the crappy workmanship, things will never change.
 

flez007

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I found the OP message an informational one, as long as we stick to it without killing the messager this thread will remain usefull, and yes, as a member of the software industry I can tell you...there are bugs in every new/disruptive design. Thanks for sharing it caesar.
 
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fedickens

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Mar 17, 2014
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Caesar,

The quickest way to destroy trust in a product is to quote negative information with no firsthand experience. There is a SPL limitation for ONE
Raido model (The D3). I agree that for a model in this sort of price range,this is not positive, even though this occurs at an SPL which is unsustainable
without damage to ones ears. However, it is totally irresponsible for you or anyone else to try and paint a company's entire product line with a negative brush on the basis of an issue with one model and which the company is addressing. The D3 is extraordinary in its musical reproduction. Have a listen.
You and anyone else are sure to be amazed.
 

caesar

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I found the OP message an informational one, as long as we stick to it without killing the messager this thread will remain usefull, and yes, as a member of the software industry I can tell you...there are bugs in every new/disruptive design. Thanks for sharing it caesar.

Thanks! I can handle it. And I hope something better comes from this incident.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Caesar,

The quickest way to destroy trust in a product is to quote negative information with no firsthand experience. There is a SPL limitation for ONE
Raido model (The D3). I agree that for a model in this sort of price range,this is not positive, even though this occurs at an SPL which is unsustainable
without damage to ones ears. However, it is totally irresponsible for you or anyone else to try and paint a company's entire product line with a negative brush on the basis of an issue with one model and which the company is addressing. The D3 is extraordinary in its musical reproduction. Have a listen.
You and anyone else are sure to be amazed.

You got a point. My intention is definitely not to kill this brand, but to create awareness. As I said in a post above, they make great speakers. A variety of reviewers, not just guys who have a very niche taste along with a loud mouth, have written positively of them. I have heard raidhos as well as Ebens years ago, and they are very respectable. I am sad, not happy, having to write about this.

But let’s also remember that this is as much about high end audio hobby as it is about Raidho. Our once highly prevalent, yet currently avant-garde, hobby has no media. Thus we have to watch our backs ourselves.

And don’t you think that the people at BMW forum wouldn’t be lighting it up discussing a Porsche model that couldn't get up to 60 mph? And don't you think Ford people were laughing when Mercedes of then combined Mercedes/ Chrysler were having quality problems that forced out their flamboyant rock star CEO Schrempp?

Now I realize that this is a moment of schadenfreude for Raidho’s competitors. I’m sure guys like David Wilson , who got video upon videos on youtube of his guys crafting, rubbing, and painting the speakers in slow motion, is laughing and thinking what a bunch of careless slobs and schmucks the guys in Denmark are. But this is a sad time for our industry.

Yet my hope is that after putting this up to public scrutiny the famous reviewers will not put the high end speakers to just a bit more scrutiny before gushing the superlatives. (In fact, there is a famous reviewer who has a reputation for coming into a room for 5 minutes and asking the system be turned on as loud as possible, and then leaving…He obviously missed this one!)

After all, this is high end audio. The market has shifted from the stereotypical disheveled, unshaven, unwashed schlub audiophile with gear from 70’s, spinning records in his basement - to guys who are spending as much money in a pair of speakers or amplifiers as they would spend on a shiny luxury automobile.

The schlub audiophiles are a Large market segment, and they don’t mind futzing and putzing with their old gear. But the segment of the guys who are spending the big money are younger and busier. They are buying the engineering and craftsmanship, but more importantly, they are buying a dream. That dream is an illusion of performers in their very home...

And reviewers seem to comply. Check out Jonathan Valin, the biggest Raidho enthusiast in the media today, who seems to be getting over his analytic period and cheerleading that has so greatly tarnished his reputation. With Magico Q5 out of his system, and Raidho’s in, Valin is showing what a great, talented writer he is in the recent TAS, talking about the new $30K, 2 box ARC phono preamp:

“…just put on any well-recorded LP—say Acoustic Sounds’ marvelous two-disc, 45rpm reissue of The Doors’ L.A. Woman (remastered by Doug Sax, no less)—and thrill to the Ref Phono 10’s newfound density of tone color, which gives the bass range, the power range, and the midrange the black marble solidity and three-dimensional substantiality—the wall of sound—that you only hear when listening to rock live (preferably in a small club with good monitors, good acoustics, a mixer who knows what he’s doing, and a really tight four-or five-piece band). Not only does the Ref Phono 10 add lifelike tonal weight and body to kickdrum, bass, and keyboard on a song like “L.A. Woman”; it also does wonders for Jim Morrison’s voice (“I did a little down about an hour ago”), which through the Ref Phono 10 sounds fuller and more immediate (which it should, BTW, since he reputedly recorded this vocal in the studio bathroom precisely in order to get a fuller sound) than it does through the lighter-weight Reference 2 SE or solid-state.

However...as great as this injection of tonal weight, color, and body is, what happens to dynamics is just as sensational. To put this plainly, you’re going to be lifted out of your chair when you hear and feel the impact of John Densmore’s rimshots, the tires-on-the-freeway throb of Jerry Scheff’s sensational Fender bass, and the almost-Morrison-like abandon of that glorious Robby Krieger guitar solo at the climax of “L.A. Woman” (after Mr. Mojo rises), which never, ever, fails to cause my mojo to rise, raising goosebumps on my arms and sending chills down my spine. What a great friggin’ song! As good as rock gets, IMO. And though I’ve heard it ten thousand times, it’s never thrilled me more on LP ….

Suffice it to say that in every sonic regard—from timbre, to dynamics, to image focus, to dimensionality, to soundstage width and breadth, to perceived realism—this is the best…”

Valin does a fabulous job of describing the illusion of what just about every audiophile wants – gear that sounds and feels real! He triggers the imaginative process that makes us see ourselves as an accomplished, dashing men that makes us want and as a result sells Porsches like hotcakes, makes teenagers get Air Jordans and leave all they got on the court, gets tycoons to buy trophy real estate properties, and makes little girls dress up like princesses. He does a great job of creating desire and yearning via this soft core audio porn. That dream creates a feeling of a world where life shines brightly despite all the hshit that is going on all around.

Yet Valin only talks about the high side of the hobby. In reality, there exists an ugly underbelly to high end audio that most of us have to deal with: delay of gratification while saving money ,the big no’s, the small no’s, the arguments with the spouse, moving heavy equipment, occasionally dinging it (whoops, that bump is only several $K, hauling different amps, hurting your back, cutting your hands as you lift it, getting new cables, getting wrong lengths of cables, hooking up, unhooking , finding cables of correct lengths, waiting another week for things to come in, moving the gear again, selling it, etc. What a PAIN IN THE ASS!!!!

Again, this is about Raidho as much as it is about what high end audio should be. I hope Raidho gets their act straight, and more importantly I hope the brand’s owners will find their dreams fulfilled. I hope other high end manufacturers will read this and get extra paranoid before releasing their product. To look over these screw ups is the same as to ask for more screw ups.

Cheers!

PS. My apologies to all for the images of Valin’s mojo rising. :)
 

asiufy

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So now that Valin likes a speaker that you approve of, he's suddenly OK?

alexandre
 

FrantzM

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