Racks or racket?
- Thread starter MEM
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I had a custom kitchen cabinet maker make my rack...he did a stunning job...and he is a crazy audiophile, so he did a nice job "sound-wise too." 3" thick on all sides of birch-ply, then completely veneered with black african sapele wood, then polished to piano0-finish gloss which shows the matching 'butterfly patterns' of the wood grain. He then set the whole thing (decoupled) on top of a 1" thick slab of slate which sits on the floor. Be aware...with any reasonably sized proportions, it'll be heavy as s-t...took four guys to carry it in and set it up. i had a double width (58" long by 24" deep and roughly 30" high with shelf in the middle).
Lloyd
i've come full circle on racks and vibration control. i started thinking to have a solid grounded rack and treat each piece of gear optimally individually. then i was having issues with heavy power cords and interconnects compromising the isolation treatments to each piece of gear.....which drove me to a simpler, more elegant solution......the Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack system. the GPA allowed each shelf to be individually tuned, and the whole rack de-coupled. it worked pretty darn good. during that time i also tried true active isolation with the Halcyonics isolation table down to 1/2 hz.....as well as mag-lev....and i still have a mag-lev table. i've also gone to the Absolute Fidelity power cords which are very flexible and don't put stress on gear. a de-coupling rack with turntables is a crap shoot. each tt responds differently to different racks based on how the tt was originally designed. in the last couple of years i found that i could surpass rack decoupling with individual isolation footers (Wave Kinetics A10 U8's) which outperformed any previous vibration treatment approach, and worked best with a grounded rack. i have 8 sets of 4 A10-U8's and use the Adona racks which are solid and grounded (and reasonably priced). my tt is Wave Kinetics and comes with it's own isolation system which is meant to sit on a grounded rack. by 'gounded rack' i mean a rack with a direct spiked connection to a solid floor and some degree of mass to firmly 'ground' the rack.
my system sounds the best it's ever sounded, i think that my evolution of isolation treatment and racks is a significant contributor to the refinement i am enjoying.
i strongly recommend the A10 U8 isolation footers used as tuning devices combined with a grounded rack of choice. i use as many as 6 and as few as 3 per piece of gear depending on weight and degree of heat. on my amp i need to 'massage' the A10 U8's every 30 days as the heat will cause the footer to solidify to a degree and lose it's de-coupling properties.
if you actually believe that your gear (whatever it might be) will not benefit from some sort of isolation or rack interface tuning you have just not spent sufficient time and effort to investigate the issue. solid state or tube, speaker, electronics or source....it does not matter. there is a background of noise and vibration singing along with the music, and the more you can eliminate it the more your music will come alive. i'm not saying there is only one approach to solving these issues, only that no gear aspiring to be high performance is immune.
if you are interested in how 'hard science' approaches environmental isolation you might want to read this tutorial from Herzan.
http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/sources-of-noise.html
Herzan recommends something called a TS Stable Table as the ultimate isolation for an Electron Microscope. this device is similar to the Halcyonics shelf i had in my system a few years ago. at around $10k each, they are not cheap, but they are likely the top level of isolation devices, when effectively installed. in a perfect world, i'd have one of these under every piece of gear all sitting on grounded racks on concrete on a ground floor. that is how Herzan recommends installing an electron microscope.
my system sounds the best it's ever sounded, i think that my evolution of isolation treatment and racks is a significant contributor to the refinement i am enjoying.
i strongly recommend the A10 U8 isolation footers used as tuning devices combined with a grounded rack of choice. i use as many as 6 and as few as 3 per piece of gear depending on weight and degree of heat. on my amp i need to 'massage' the A10 U8's every 30 days as the heat will cause the footer to solidify to a degree and lose it's de-coupling properties.
if you actually believe that your gear (whatever it might be) will not benefit from some sort of isolation or rack interface tuning you have just not spent sufficient time and effort to investigate the issue. solid state or tube, speaker, electronics or source....it does not matter. there is a background of noise and vibration singing along with the music, and the more you can eliminate it the more your music will come alive. i'm not saying there is only one approach to solving these issues, only that no gear aspiring to be high performance is immune.
if you are interested in how 'hard science' approaches environmental isolation you might want to read this tutorial from Herzan.
http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/sources-of-noise.html
Herzan recommends something called a TS Stable Table as the ultimate isolation for an Electron Microscope. this device is similar to the Halcyonics shelf i had in my system a few years ago. at around $10k each, they are not cheap, but they are likely the top level of isolation devices, when effectively installed. in a perfect world, i'd have one of these under every piece of gear all sitting on grounded racks on concrete on a ground floor. that is how Herzan recommends installing an electron microscope.
Mike - have you tried the Wave Kinetics isolation footers for speakers? I have a pair of X1/Grand Slamms...about 600-650lbs each...and wanted to get your experience on whether they improve large speakers...and if so, in what way. Thanks for any guidance.
Mike - have you tried the Wave Kinetics isolation footers for speakers? I have a pair of X1/Grand Slamms...about 600-650lbs each...and wanted to get your experience on whether they improve large speakers...and if so, in what way. Thanks for any guidance.
Wave Kinetics...run by Jonathan Tinn...does provide measurements of speakers before using their footers...and after. Not being a techie, i am always skeptical of measurements...like statistics...since i do not know the science myself. However, they do provide the measurements and did so for the interviewer on his own system at home (who printed them i believe).
I would be interested to read such a review. Would like to see what it changes about the speaker response and our perception of such ... To me it is not so mcuh that certain phenomenon occurs... I am sure if you shake some capacitor, there may be a change in electrical behavior that could be measurable. My point is that is it audible? Can we reliably perceive such minute changes ? Many swear they can ... When knowledge is removed the perception ends almost always to disappear ... This will not be settled in this debate or others.
I do know and can verify it with many audiophile that the perception of such changes with many isolation devices is not as dramatic as what one gets treating his or he rooms or changing speakers. For the OP that remains my advice. What you would have spent in Isolation devices, Spend it right now on Room Acoustics .. If you are very new to this or even for those with more experience on the matter, the best remains to talk to a person who deals in Room Acoustics Treatment some of hem in this very forum.. That will provide you with the best sound for your dollars or whatever your local currency is , then and only then you play with those expensive isolation devices and strain to to hear differences .. Depending on your persuasion you may hear some ... Even if there are none ...
Hi Mike,
Thank you for the detailed summary of your experience. I do assume that vibration isolation is an issue; I've just been frustrated by the lack of information available which is why I posted this thread in the first place. In my case having wood floors likely poses even greater problems both with regards to vibration and acoustics. I suspect that optimizing this system will take much tweaking. I am putting the Wave Kinetics footers on my short list of products to investigate further.
MEM
Thank you for the detailed summary of your experience. I do assume that vibration isolation is an issue; I've just been frustrated by the lack of information available which is why I posted this thread in the first place. In my case having wood floors likely poses even greater problems both with regards to vibration and acoustics. I suspect that optimizing this system will take much tweaking. I am putting the Wave Kinetics footers on my short list of products to investigate further.
MEM
I would be interested to read such a review. Would like to see what it changes about the speaker response and our perception of such ... To me it is not so mcuh that certain phenomenon occurs... I am sure if you shake some capacitor, there may be a change in electrical behavior that could be measurable. My point is that is it audible? Can we reliably perceive such minute changes ? Many swear they can ... When knowledge is removed the perception ends almost always to disappear ... This will not be settled in this debate or others.
I do know and can verify it with many audiophile that the perception of such changes with many isolation devices is not as dramatic as what one gets treating his or he rooms or changing speakers. For the OP that remains my advice. What you would have spent in Isolation devices, Spend it right now on Room Acoustics .. If you are very new to this or even for those with more experience on the matter, the best remains to talk to a person who deals in Room Acoustics Treatment some of hem in this very forum.. That will provide you with the best sound for your dollars or whatever your local currency is , then and only then you play with those expensive isolation devices and strain to to hear differences .. Depending on your persuasion you may hear some ... Even if there are none ...
You will have to speak with the manufacturer. here is the review by positive feedback. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue46/brutus_awards2.htm unfortunately...the measurements they used were not printed.
EMphasis is mine .. Curious ...
I agree with you Frantz....if you're going to measure to demonstrate sonic benefits, print them, no? To be honest, i have heard the improvements of isolation myself which were clear and measurable. Tube microphony vs 'no' microphony. I used to clap my hands near the tube, and hear it in the speakers...that disappeared with isolation.
Coming back to article, i hvae heard great things about A10-U8s and n2s...would love to audition them though they are expensive.
Lloyd,
i've not used the Wave Kinetics speaker footers. i use the Harmonix (by Combak) RF-999 Mk2 spike bases under my speaker spikes. i had those prior to development of the Wave Kinetics. i'm happy with mine, however they are very expensive. my expectations are that the Wave Kinetics speaker footers are competitive with mine.
regarding printing measurments. as i've said repeatedly, i could care less about measurments. either the product works or it does not for me. i try a product and it gets me closer to the music or it does not.
on an intellectual level i can see the desire to look at evidence of performance. but the numbers don't mean jack if the product does not deliver.
i was skeptical of the whole design approach of Wave Kinetics in general on all their products; they created all their products based wholey on hard science, and not on being music lovers or audiophiles. turns out they were right. amazingly so. but they do hold their information closely. of course, their day jobs are doing robotics for the defense industry......so keeping secrets is what they do.
i've not used the Wave Kinetics speaker footers. i use the Harmonix (by Combak) RF-999 Mk2 spike bases under my speaker spikes. i had those prior to development of the Wave Kinetics. i'm happy with mine, however they are very expensive. my expectations are that the Wave Kinetics speaker footers are competitive with mine.
regarding printing measurments. as i've said repeatedly, i could care less about measurments. either the product works or it does not for me. i try a product and it gets me closer to the music or it does not.
on an intellectual level i can see the desire to look at evidence of performance. but the numbers don't mean jack if the product does not deliver.
i was skeptical of the whole design approach of Wave Kinetics in general on all their products; they created all their products based wholey on hard science, and not on being music lovers or audiophiles. turns out they were right. amazingly so. but they do hold their information closely. of course, their day jobs are doing robotics for the defense industry......so keeping secrets is what they do.
Mike
I don't think they were right to quote you "amazingly so" .. What you are appreciating right now on our system is based on science however way you look at it ... Measurements brought them to you .. every single part of your system or mine or anybody's ... Thus my insistence on a way to measure things.. To be able to repeat things .. No to ge to something by sheer luck .. Imagine the odds to get something right without measurements or the trial and error from those who don't have easy access to equipment ... or whose budget has limits ... That,s to me what measurements are about.
I don't think they were right to quote you "amazingly so" .. What you are appreciating right now on our system is based on science however way you look at it ... Measurements brought them to you .. every single part of your system or mine or anybody's ... Thus my insistence on a way to measure things.. To be able to repeat things .. No to ge to something by sheer luck .. Imagine the odds to get something right without measurements or the trial and error from those who don't have easy access to equipment ... or whose budget has limits ... That,s to me what measurements are about.
Frantz,
i agree! i'm glad that they measured. and just measuring is ok, as is never measuring, as far as product development. i don't care either way. most product development involves both measuring and listening. i do know that even Wave Kinetics has benefited from listener feedback in product development, because it was from me in one case. and they did bring some of their products to my room for testing.
my 'amazingly so' related to how much better their products ended up being than the best similar products i had heard. how could these newcomers to audio product development beat the competition? but they did.
science serves the art, but cannot define it.
i simply don't view my hobby thru measurments. period. i listen.
in some ways; it allows me to be more objective. as i don't have pre-concieved expectations based on how things ought to sound.
So Frantz, let's say you develop or discover a drug that cures a certain disease say like cancer. (remember not all drugs are empirically designed; NIH and many pharmaceuticals for instance, have projects where they are just screening every naturally occurring product that might be found in the rain forests for anti-cancer activity). You don't however, understand how it works to kill the neoplastic cells but clearly it does in vitro and now in in vivo experiments. So would you delay its development to measure and determine how it works or go directly to large animal/phase I human testing and let someone else figure out how it works? Same holds true for audio. Designers are not academicians and doing in depth research does not generate revenue. Most of these companies are very small and it's every man on deck to produce/design/repair/ship/collect receivables, etc. Let the AES people argue over the minutae.
Furthermore, it's obvious that you subscribe to a reductionism POV. Well, it's been shown over and over again that in complex systems, esp. say humans, that just understanding the basic elemental structure does not account for synergies that happen between elements. Or the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Same holds true for audio. Just id'ing one element does not represent the big picture.
Furthermore, it's obvious that you subscribe to a reductionism POV. Well, it's been shown over and over again that in complex systems, esp. say humans, that just understanding the basic elemental structure does not account for synergies that happen between elements. Or the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Same holds true for audio. Just id'ing one element does not represent the big picture.
Running with the two prior posts...
Is there an expectation bias for measurements? That is, if something measures better, do some people expect the equipment to sound better? This of course assumes that what we are measuring will have a meaningful impact on what we perceive as sound quality. For example, is a 500 watt SS 'better' than a 50 watt tube amp if the have the the same THD, IMD, etc?
Is there an expectation bias for measurements? That is, if something measures better, do some people expect the equipment to sound better? This of course assumes that what we are measuring will have a meaningful impact on what we perceive as sound quality. For example, is a 500 watt SS 'better' than a 50 watt tube amp if the have the the same THD, IMD, etc?
I've heard more than my fair share of amps that measured terrifically and sounded like hell. For instance, Adcom, Hafler (modded or unmodded esp. the DH500), etc. Anyone who thinks the Hafler sounds good never heard the same vintage Amber 70 amp. It kicked the Hafler in the ass. And so did a modded Dynaco ST-70 in all areas save for the bass.
The above posts probably belong at this thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5432-The-fallacy-of-Expectation-Bias. Sorry for the thread hi-jacking.
Mike,
Could you detail what A/B differences you heard between the Wave Kinetics footers and your Monaco GPA racks? I have heard the 'before' and 'after' but there were a number of other moving parts so I found it difficult to ascribe specific differences to the change in isolation...
Mike,
Could you detail what A/B differences you heard between the Wave Kinetics footers and your Monaco GPA racks? I have heard the 'before' and 'after' but there were a number of other moving parts so I found it difficult to ascribe specific differences to the change in isolation...
Myles
I would be pleased to discover a drug that cures such a serous disease but let me turn the tables on you .. What are the odds of myself an engineer coming up with this drug if I weren't researching it. By stumbling on it? .. How would I test its efficacy if not by measuring some things even if those were the ingredients in the potion I came up with ?
So the Audio designer in his lab just concoct the greatest isolation device by pure accident? Chance or the superb amp by listening at it ? Just by listening, never measuring anything so that he can later replicate his wonder-product? I can understand we are not at the point where we can correlate all that we hear with measurments but we can correlate some ... Isolating something from vibration is a technology with known parameters and they were measured .. If we understand how they are measured and how what is measured correlate to what we hear we make an advance ... Now if you believe that our senses are not fallible and subject wide variations in accuracy ... It becomes a belief that the present state of knowledge belies .. but you can choose to ignore that too ...
To remain on topic and to repeat myself here .. Considering the OP question about Vibration Control aka Racks for a system he is building apparently from scratch .. Vibration control lays , literally at the bpottom of system priority and budget .. wouldn't you think? I am not calling them "racket" but I doubt anyone can think of Room Acoustics as "racket"...
I would be pleased to discover a drug that cures such a serous disease but let me turn the tables on you .. What are the odds of myself an engineer coming up with this drug if I weren't researching it. By stumbling on it? .. How would I test its efficacy if not by measuring some things even if those were the ingredients in the potion I came up with ?
So the Audio designer in his lab just concoct the greatest isolation device by pure accident? Chance or the superb amp by listening at it ? Just by listening, never measuring anything so that he can later replicate his wonder-product? I can understand we are not at the point where we can correlate all that we hear with measurments but we can correlate some ... Isolating something from vibration is a technology with known parameters and they were measured .. If we understand how they are measured and how what is measured correlate to what we hear we make an advance ... Now if you believe that our senses are not fallible and subject wide variations in accuracy ... It becomes a belief that the present state of knowledge belies .. but you can choose to ignore that too ...
To remain on topic and to repeat myself here .. Considering the OP question about Vibration Control aka Racks for a system he is building apparently from scratch .. Vibration control lays , literally at the bpottom of system priority and budget .. wouldn't you think? I am not calling them "racket" but I doubt anyone can think of Room Acoustics as "racket"...
Lot's of examples out there. Look at the story of the nurse who uncovered Lyme disease when all the MDs poo poohed her
Oh and I'm pretty sure someone like Kevin Tellekamp of Silent Running Audio has done a lot of measurements considering his background.
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