Question: How to purchase?

[GaryProtein]

Asiufy

Truth is that most dealers except a few have decent to mediocre listening rooms. The dealer of high end audio is becoming extinct and most manufacturers like Magico, Wilson, etc have listening rooms at their factory.

What better way to listen to the speaker of your choice than flying to some location where Magico, Wilson etc have a "system" they believe works best with their speaker, give it a listen and save dealer markup more than covering the cost of the trip. . . .

If you are flying to audition any equipment, be sure to allow ample time for your trip and DO NOT audition anything within 24 hours of your arriving flight as plane cabin pressure and high noise levels will definitely affect what you hear.

 

[Priaptor]

If you are flying to audition any equipment, be sure to allow ample time for your trip and DO NOT audition anything within 24 hours of your arriving flight as plane cabin pressure and high noise levels will definitely affect what you hear.

I couldn't agree more. Just got back from CO on Thurs and today was the first legitimate day of listening to my system. Yesterday I thought there was something wrong and there was - my Eustachian tubes!

 

[ack]

Wait Musicdirect is JUST the kind of business model that bricks and mortar "authorized dealers" deplore and are hastening their demise???

No disagreement. But the MusicDirects of the world _are_ authorized dealers, and the problem isn't with those types of vendors, it's the manufacturers that authorize them to tranship poroduct into someone else's territory. I work with any authorized dealer and let the brick & mortar ones battle it out with the manufacturers, if they want. Notice, I said I work with Authorized Dealers, not Local Authorized Dealers.

 

[Priaptor]

No disagreement. But the MusicDirects of the world _are_ authorized dealers, and the problem isn't with those types of vendors, it's the manufacturers that authorize them to tranship poroduct into someone else's territory. I work with any authorized dealer and let the brick & mortar ones battle it out with the manufacturers, if they want. Notice, I said I work with Authorized Dealers, not Local Authorized Dealers.

I understand and hence why the point I make is that the model of the "authorized dealer" as we once knew as bricks and mortar are dying with few exceptions.

A better model would be manufacturer direct and cut out all middle men and pass most of the savings to the customer commensurately increasing the margins to the manufacturer. What "added value" does MusicDirect provide? The spawning of the likes of MusicDirect just hastens the death of the once valuable bricks and mortar guys so why not just eliminate all and change the paradigm.

Most dealers make their money from home automation/theater/etc and not the high end stuff.

Big expensive speakers could be auditioned at manufacturer locations, smaller ones shipped to customer homes at the customers expense such expense applied to the purchase if he/she purchases the equipment and same with electronics.

Even better would be the manufacturer take back all their products on trade allowing them to resell it as "manufacturer guaranteed used" and apply trade in value to the purchase of a new or different product keeping the customer "in the family" as that is where their used equipment will maintain the most value.

However as I said in a prior post most manufacturers have no interest in such a business model as they make the biggest bucks off selling "required" demos to their dealer.

 

[asiufy]

I might be wrong here, but AFAIK, MusicDirect doesn't discount. They sell for MSRP, for the most part.
Given that, why would anyone buy from them, instead of buying locally? Sales tax?


alexandre

 

[asiufy]

Priaptor,

Look what you wrote. You're expecting manufacturers to become de facto retailers, online retailers, but still. That requires staff. And stock.
You're also operating under the assumption that the manufacturer WILL pass the dealer margin as savings to the customers, either partially or completely. That's a BIG assumption right there.
As soon as manufacturers see the amount of work and risk involved, my impression is that they're NOT going to discount much.



alexandre

 

[ack]

I might be wrong here, but AFAIK, MusicDirect doesn't discount. They sell for MSRP, for the most part.
Given that, why would anyone buy from them, instead of buying locally? Sales tax?


alexandre

Yes they do discount, based on purchase price, product, and purchasing history with them.

 

[Priaptor]

Priaptor,

Look what you wrote. You're expecting manufacturers to become de facto retailers, online retailers, but still. That requires staff. And stock.
You're also operating under the assumption that the manufacturer WILL pass the dealer margin as savings to the customers, either partially or completely. That's a BIG assumption right there.
As soon as manufacturers see the amount of work and risk involved, my impression is that they're NOT going to discount much.



alexandre

Hey, let the markets determine. Yes I am asking manufacturers to become "retailers" as more and more of them are every year and certainly they are at every show they sell direct.

If a manufacturer who charges a "dealer" 60% of retail, still makes 20-30% on the product and he/she who is selling to the "dealer" was to sell to the public at 65-70% of what the "dealer's retail was they would be way ahead of where they are and be done with the middle man, providing a much better price to the enduser. Raidho for example charges a dealer only 40% of retail leaving 60 points on the table.

As to extra cost, most of their variable and fixed costs are already accounted for whether they are selling direct or through a dealer and in fact, their costs would probably go down if they sold direct. The only cost would be for a "sound room" for the uber expensive too heavy speaker to ship to a customer for audition equipment and as far as I know most if not all manufacturers have these sound rooms to voice their products; at least any manufacturer worth their weight. Every dealer and/or manufacturer one talks with says "well we build these products for the Asian market" BUT if people open their eyes the Asian markets are becoming "mature" and their economic growth is stifling as happens in every high growth economy-eventually the growth can't be sustained.

Do you think these innumerable shows are for "fun"? No, they are to sell their gear. More deals are made at these shows then you know. So why not just modify the "show paradigm" and use modern techniques, including the NET, etc, to broaden the marketplace. As I said above, most bricks and mortar dealers can no longer make money off of "the audiophile". IF they don't sell home automation/theater/etc, they are out of business, save a few and even the Goodwins of this world probably make more and more off the home theater/automation market than they do off the audiophile. The more the manufacturer demands of the bricks and mortar guys, the higher the price, the less product they sell through these guys and the more that are being sold back door anyway. I know of many, including on this and other sites that are already bypassing the bricks and mortar guys.

It is time to call a spade a spade and not pretend and provide a market that ensures not destroys the survival of audiophile gear.

 

[ack]

A better model would be manufacturer direct and cut out all middle men and pass most of the savings to the customer commensurately increasing the margins to the manufacturer. What "added value" does MusicDirect provide? The spawning of the likes of MusicDirect just hastens the death of the once valuable bricks and mortar guys so why not just eliminate all and change the paradigm.

I am not sure I follow the argument; you called the brick and mortar stores "valuable", but selling direct also leads to their death

It's questionable to me that selling direct would provide the same level of service and product exposure that a dealer of any kind adds, including online stores, and would increase consumer dependence on hear-say and reviews, and limit overall exposure to the plethora of products available. Online stores can still sometimes offer very good advice, more generous returns and longer home-audition periods, set-up help (they set up my VPI table's arm for free, and it was correct when I checked it), they interface with vendors that are hard to get on the phone like VPI, occasionally offer convenient payments with 0% interest for X months, and more. What you don't get is the personal touch, the lengthy discussions that a local dealer is able to provide, in-home consultations, of course in-store demos, and breadth of knowledge - by contrast online stores will often offer a dry, shallow "try it and see how you like it", and for things like cartridges this is not even an option, because there is usually no return policy (just high trade-in value) - I bought my A90 from MusicDirect based purely on my own technical analysis, so slightly better than a shot in the dark; however, they did offer the highest trade-in value for my XX-2.

The bottom line is, if an online dealer overall cannot exactly offer the same level of service a local brick and mortar store will, I can't see how selling direct would even approach either.

Having said that, overall, I have probably spent 70% of my budget locally...

 

[Priaptor]

I am not sure I follow the argument; you called the brick and mortar stores "valuable", but selling direct also leads to their death

It's questionable to me that selling direct would provide the same level of service and product exposure that a dealer of any kind adds, including online stores, and would increase consumer dependence on hear-say and reviews, and limit overall exposure to the plethora of products available. Online stores can still sometimes offer very good advice, more generous returns and longer home-audition periods, set-up help (they set up my VPI table's arm for free, and it was correct when I checked it), they interface with vendors that are hard to get on the phone like VPI, occasionally offer convenient payments with 0% interest for X months, and more. What you don't get is the personal touch, the lengthy discussions that a local dealer is able to provide, in-home consultations, of course in-store demos, and breadth of knowledge - by contrast online stores will often offer a dry, shallow "try it and see how you like it", and for things like cartridges this is not even an option, because there is usually no return policy (just high trade-in value) - I bought my A90 from MusicDirect based purely on my own technical analysis, so slightly better than a shot in the dark; however, they did offer the highest trade-in value for my XX-2.

The bottom line is, if an online dealer overall cannot exactly offer the same level of service a local brick and mortar store will, I can't see how selling direct would even approach either.

Having said that, overall, I have probably spent 70% of my budget locally...

Ack,

I am sorry if it came off as critique of your purchasing habits, it was not meant to be, just to point out that you are basically already participating in a model that, with some modification, I endorse. Yes in the "good old days" and in the "perfect world" I am sure many of us would like to go back to, you had a bricks and mortar dealer, there were a grand total of 20 manufacturers selling their wares and you paid list and got great service (for the most part) and there was no haggling.

We are in a new age where product is being sold online, backdoor at shows, illicitly by dealers outside their designated marketplace, etc. IMHO, the role of the bricks and mortar dealer have pretty much been eradicated. There are now 100s of products, not just 20 and they are all vying for attention and sale-hence the innumerable shows. Where we differ is our belief in the value of the middle man, particularly the online middleman, such as MusicDirect or AsousticSounds. Every manufacturer and/or reseller is going to tout the benefits of their products over others so why even engage in the game. Reviews are for the most part useless, but gives one some sort of reference to do their homework.

I just don't see the current model surviving another 5 years and I think manufacturers, with the exception of Audio Research, Wilson, Magico also see the writing on the wall.

When I see people stating that "Magico offers good value" I know we haven't yet reached the tipping point but are getting close. It kind of reminds me of any market where value is determined by momentum.

 

[ack]

Never read anything offensive in your response, simply just discussing, expressing an opinion and arguing some points. Yes, I would LOVE to go back to the old days of just brick-and-mortar stores and many more of them (because, as I argue, the good ones do offer higher service), but *without* the greed in pricing that I often saw (the ill-effects of exclusivity). But to me, their death has always been a matter of bad business decisions and practices, like in any other type of business sector, between *them _and_ manufacturers*, as opposed to online stores killing them - a combination of: ignorance, abandoning the high end market in favor of home theater a decade+ ago, lack of adequate capital to do it right, manufacturer undercutting of their dealers, that gross exploitation of exclusivity, and perhaps other factors. Online stores, for the most part, simply take advantage of manufacturers' lack of proper support for their brick-and-mortar dealers - that trans-shipping thing to anyone else's territory; that in turn, inevitably translates into savings for consumers (at the expense of lower-level service, but not complete lack of it), which is admittedly attractive to me, when I know what I want and why. The other part of the online business I see is carrying brands that no one else wants, for a variety of reasons... From my perspective, that gross territorial exploitation was driving me away, especially with cables...

At the end of the day, we probably agree more than disagree.

 

[Priaptor]

Never read anything offensive in your response, simply just discussing, expressing an opinion and arguing some points. Yes, I would LOVE to go back to the old days of just brick-and-mortar stores and many more of them (because, as I argue, the good ones do offer higher service), but *without* the greed in pricing that I often saw (the ill-effects of exclusivity). But to me, their death has always been a matter of bad business decisions and practices, like in any other type of business sector, between *them _and_ manufacturers*, as opposed to online stores killing them - a combination of: ignorance, abandoning the high end market in favor of home theater a decade+ ago, lack of adequate capital to do it right, manufacturer undercutting of their dealers, that gross exploitation of exclusivity, and perhaps other factors. Online stores, for the most part, simply take advantage of manufacturers' lack of proper support for their brick-and-mortar dealers - that trans-shipping thing to anyone else's territory; that in turn, inevitably translates into savings for consumers (at the expense of lower-level service, but not complete lack of it), which is admittedly attractive to me, when I know what I want and why. The other part of the online business I see is carrying brands that no one else wants, for a variety of reasons... From my perspective, that gross territorial exploitation was driving me away, especially with cables...

At the end of the day, we probably agree more than disagree.

I think we DEFINITELY agree. I think we just have a small difference of opinion as to how it should proceed.

 

[ack]

I think we DEFINITELY agree. I think we just have a small difference of opinion as to how it should proceed.

Right, and I wouldn't pretend to know enough to offer solid advice on how to fix all this, though the problems I have outlined are readily evident to me. I was only offering my purchasing approach in response to the original question in the thread.

 

[PeterA]

Very interesting topic. There has not been much or any discussion yet about how certain brands are demonstrated at shows or sold through dealerships exclusively with certain other brands. One example that I can think of is Wilson/Transparent/D'Agostino or Doshi. Another is Magico/MIT/Spectral or Boulder. One almost never comes across a dealer who sells both Magico and Wilson, or Transparent and MIT, or ARC and VTL. As such, manufacturers and dealers seem to cooperate/conspire to encourage certain upgrade paths while certain direct comparisons are discouraged. Options become limited and brand combinations and territories are strengthened.

One can argue that choice has never been greater while local auditions have never been more restricted.

 

[LL21]

Very interesting topic. There has not been much or any discussion yet about how certain brands are demonstrated at shows or sold through dealerships exclusively with certain other brands...One almost never comes across a dealer who sells both Magico and Wilson, or Transparent and MIT, or ARC and VTL. As such, manufacturers and dealers seem to cooperate/conspire to encourage certain upgrade paths while certain direct comparisons are discouraged. Options become limited and brand combinations and territories are strengthened.

One can argue that choice has never been greater while local auditions have never been more restricted.

Interesting points all, and I can see where you are coming from...particularly the last bit. In the UK and across a few countries in Europe (Portugal?)...Absolute Sounds is the importer for both Wilson and Magico. Nevertheless, I hear you on one distributor covering both...not duplicative but certainly competitive and potentially cannibalizing business a bit.

 

[DaveyF]

Very interesting topic. There has not been much or any discussion yet about how certain brands are demonstrated at shows or sold through dealerships exclusively with certain other brands. One example that I can think of is Wilson/Transparent/D'Agostino or Doshi. Another is Magico/MIT/Spectral or Boulder. One almost never comes across a dealer who sells both Magico and Wilson, or Transparent and MIT, or ARC and VTL. As such, manufacturers and dealers seem to cooperate/conspire to encourage certain upgrade paths while certain direct comparisons are discouraged. Options become limited and brand combinations and territories are strengthened.

One can argue that choice has never been greater while local auditions have never been more restricted.

Peter, I believe that one almost never comes across a dealer who sells both Magico and Wilson is due to this fact.....AW goes bananas IF a dealer wishes to stock both brands, and from what I have also heard; DW does exactly the same thing,LOL

 

[LL21]

Peter, I believe that one almost never comes across a dealer who sells both Magico and Wilson is due to this fact.....AW goes bananas IF a dealer wishes to stock both brands, and from what I have also heard; DW does exactly the same thing,LOL

Must be interesting for both designers then in UK, Portugal and anywhere where Absolute Sounds distributes both Wilson and Magico!

 

[DaveyF]

Must be interesting for both designers then in UK, Portugal and anywhere where Absolute Sounds distributes both Wilson and Magico!

Yup, I guess they have to hold themselves in check, LOL. Either that, or they aren't aware of the situation

 

[LL21]

Yup, I guess they have to hold themselves in check, LOL. Either that, or they aren't aware of the situation

It's called a monopoly...Absolute Sounds is possibly the largest distributor in the country, and being a relatively small country...its tough to beat their positioning. I am sure both are aware of the situation, but there is not a whole lot either can do if they want to be distributed by a big US-style distributor who has a big marketing budget, gets in the press often (as far back as '90s in Stereophile by the way)...and can service not just UK but Portugal and even has clients with multiple homes as far away as Korea, Africa, etc...

 

[DaveyF]

It's called a monopoly...Absolute Sounds is possibly the largest distributor in the country, and being a relatively small country...its tough to beat their positioning. I am sure both are aware of the situation, but there is not a whole lot either can do if they want to be distributed by a big US-style distributor who has a big marketing budget, gets in the press often (as far back as '90s in Stereophile by the way)...and can service not just UK but Portugal and even has clients with multiple homes as far away as Korea, Africa, etc...

Interesting how Absolute Sounds has had a monopoly for years. I've never had to deal with them, but I understand that they are actually fairly good. Let's hope that is the case.