Phono cable recommendations?

Atmasphere

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If I send an XLR phono cable with a separate ground wire, if I do connect shield at pin1 it's a gamble. IME, it's better not to because the customer may not get an ideal result if I do connect pin1, and they may never know it. However, the technically correct way to build the cable is with pin1 connected.
FWIW before we connected a phonograph to a balanced input no-one else had done it.

But it wasn't hard to figure out; just do it the way you'd make a mic cable. So pin 1 is shield and there's no ground wire, because the shield is the ground, just as the tonearm tube is.
but I do have a hard time believing that this is that difficult for designers of phono preamps to get right.
Just use Occam's Razor. The idea that a designer screwed up is pretty simple. The other explanation that somehow that addition of a ground wire will make the phono section noisy in some cases and not others despite the phono section being 'designed right' is far more complex.

In the old days when we were the only manufacturer that had a balanced phono section, dealers were mad at us because they had to change out the cable to audition our preamp with a turntable. But using RCA connectors compromises the performance so we had the XLR connectors there as an incentive to do it right.

There's another thread on this site about 'blacker backgrounds' and this feeds right into it. You can't use an RCA connection and call it balanced even though the cartridge is balanced and the signal is amplified in the balanced domain. This is because as I explained earlier, the + side of the signal being shielded by the - side of the signal causes a noise imbalance at the connectors. It may not be much noise but it for sure is there, and if you want a really black background on which the musical palette is presented, all the ducks have to be in a row. If its going to be balanced, the cable is always going to be made the same way every time. No ground wire; perhaps the only variation is if a miniature XLR or the like is used at the preamp end of the cable.
 

DaveC

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FWIW before we connected a phonograph to a balanced input no-one else had done it.

But it wasn't hard to figure out; just do it the way you'd make a mic cable. So pin 1 is shield and there's no ground wire, because the shield is the ground, just as the tonearm tube is.

Just use Occam's Razor. The idea that a designer screwed up is pretty simple. The other explanation that somehow that addition of a ground wire will make the phono section noisy in some cases and not others despite the phono section being 'designed right' is far more complex.

In the old days when we were the only manufacturer that had a balanced phono section, dealers were mad at us because they had to change out the cable to audition our preamp with a turntable. But using RCA connectors compromises the performance so we had the XLR connectors there as an incentive to do it right.

There's another thread on this site about 'blacker backgrounds' and this feeds right into it. You can't use an RCA connection and call it balanced even though the cartridge is balanced and the signal is amplified in the balanced domain. This is because as I explained earlier, the + side of the signal being shielded by the - side of the signal causes a noise imbalance at the connectors. It may not be much noise but it for sure is there, and if you want a really black background on which the musical palette is presented, all the ducks have to be in a row. If its going to be balanced, the cable is always going to be made the same way every time. No ground wire; perhaps the only variation is if a miniature XLR or the like is used at the preamp end of the cable.


So it's all your fault! ;) It seems trendy to do phono XLR these days, it's really annoying and it does cause problems.

I disagree that RCA is that big of a liability, lots of people have great single ended systems using RCAs and many, I'm sure, also have "black backgrounds". I'm not the only one that thinks SE and RCA plugs work fine and sound better.
 
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lo mass connectors are my choice...like Eichmann rca and Neutrik speakon or the more unusual STAX binding posts
cannot fathom why anyone absolutely wants their diminuitive signal pushed through a big thick chunk of metal
 
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Solypsa

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Do you have a pic of the stax binding post?
 

Atmasphere

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So it's all your fault! ;) It seems trendy to do phono XLR these days, it's really annoying and it does cause problems.

I disagree that RCA is that big of a liability, lots of people have great single ended systems using RCAs and many, I'm sure, also have "black backgrounds". I'm not the only one that thinks SE and RCA plugs work fine and sound better.
It arguably is my fault.

The main reason to use balanced operation is to get better sound. In a single-ended cable, when the signal return currents are the same as the ground, the construction of the cable becomes part of the sound. And its easy to see that the tonearm cable is the most critical in the entire system- it has to get things right. When the cable is balanced in a nutshell its more neutral; that is after all one of the proven successful goals of balanced operation (balanced cables are what ushered in the age of HiFi). The only concern is keeping the capacitance down when dealing with phono cartridges. But as I've said many times over the years, the balanced standard has to be observed and high end audio is pretty terrible at that.

So you get really variable results which should not be happening, and actual for real, people saying that there isn't an advantage or improvement in sound quality when there is if things are done correctly.

My first exposure to balanced lines was when I noticed a pair of Neumann microphones hanging over the stage when the orchestra in which I played bass was getting ready for a performance at a local hall. I went to the recording booth and met the recording engineer whom I still know. The microphone cables were a good 150 feet in length (they had to go up to the cloud ceiling and back down) yet the headphones showed that the sound was superb in every way. That was 1973, about five years before Robert Fulton (also a local in the Twin Cities) founded the high end audio cable industry with his RCA interconnects and Fulton Gold speaker cables.

So I've known for a very long time that balanced cables work. It was the technology that got rid of cable colorations long before Robert Fulton came along. So when I started designing a tube preamp to go with my amplifier concept (which was fully differential), it made sense to designed a balanced preamp rather than a single-ended unit, as there already were many of the latter already in production in 1987. It never occurred to me to not support the standard; I was a bit dismayed to see other balanced line products enter the market that simply ignored it, and that has been the way its been in high end audio ever since. So I've no doubt that you experience (as many others do) that there isn't a particular advantage to balanced operation, but that isn't how its supposed to be!
 

DasguteOhr

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Hello,
Low mass and capacity rca plug- cable 4N silverfoil in cotton, the best i ever heard.
My Speaker cable same company 4N silverfoil. 20210120_131304.jpg 20210120_131211.jpg
 
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Solypsa

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lo mass connectors are my choice...like Eichmann rca and Neutrik speakon or the more unusual STAX binding posts
cannot fathom why anyone absolutely wants their diminuitive signal pushed through a big thick chunk of metal
I would be happy to not have any iec power inlets and rca signal jacks in favor of positive lock power-con type power and speaker connection and mult-pin signal connection.
 

DaveC

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lo mass connectors are my choice...like Eichmann rca and Neutrik speakon or the more unusual STAX binding posts
cannot fathom why anyone absolutely wants their diminuitive signal pushed through a big thick chunk of metal


I agree, some other low-mass connectors to consider are WBT Nexgen RCA plugs and jacks, I use the WBT 0152 Ag on my cables, which is platinum plated silver. I like the locking connectors as push-on type connectors (both RCA and banana) will wear out the plating too quickly, and for bananas it can't be made out of pure copper.

For binding posts I like the Furutech FT-865(R)


These are used with FT-210(R) pure copper quick connects, link is to gold but rhodium are available, so both binding post and connector are the same rhodium plated pure copper. Furutech has a variety of similar posts that only use plated pure copper wire for the conductor.


WBT doesn't make XLR plugs and IMO an XLR plug the equal of WBT RCA plugs simply does not exist.

I like Neutrik, I just wish their contacts were pure copper. Great value though, the price is extremely reasonable, you usually can't do better for anywhere near the price.
 

DaveC

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I would be happy to not have any iec power inlets and rca signal jacks in favor of positive lock power-con type power and speaker connection and mult-pin signal connection.

One big plus with RCA is the plug goes in with any orientation. Short, shielded XLR cables can be a PITA if the plugs don't line up with the jacks!
 
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dan31

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I have been using the Furutech CF-102 rca connectors for my phono cable and they seem to do a fine job.
 
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I like both Speakon and Powercon....IEC is mostly crap
but then again I mostly prefer no BS progear like Studer, EMT etc
the world is full of overpriced bling crap.....and once the audio community gets their hands on a market , the worms crawl out of the woodwork imo
 
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dminches

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Speaking of phono cables, can a low output MC cartridge ever actually break in a phono cable? What do people do to break in new phono cables? Is the cable cooker recommended in this situation?
 

DaveC

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Speaking of phono cables, can a low output MC cartridge ever actually break in a phono cable? What do people do to break in new phono cables? Is the cable cooker recommended in this situation?

Many folks have great results with using an AudioDharma Cable Cooker annually or bi-annually when they clean electrical contacts including tube sockets, etc...

I use the cable cooker but I also find shipping sets back new cables so having a cable cooker is not a bad investment for a serious audio junky! :)
 
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dminches

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Many folks have great results with using an AudioDharma Cable Cooker annually or bi-annually when they clean electrical contacts including tube sockets, etc...

I use the cable cooker but I also find shipping sets back new cables so having a cable cooker is not a bad investment for a serious audio junky! :)

Is the basic cooker sufficient? I don’t really see what the other models do.
 

DaveC

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Is the basic cooker sufficient? I don’t really see what the other models do.


Well, my basic cooker broke after 15 years or so, I replaced it with the top of the line Anniversary High Power model, but without the original to compare it's difficult to be certain, because from what I can tell time is a factor as well. So it could be that more time on the lower power model would do the same thing as less time on the high power. I'd ask Alan, the owner of AudioDharma to be sure. I think he'll say the high power gets you a more thorough burn-in. You can also experiment with putting the unit on a timer so it rests at intervals. This may be better than a simple 100% duty cycle. To be honest I have not compared that yet, I have a list of about a million things that need to listened to, lol... I could make just that a full time job easily.

You may need to make an adapter for a phono DIN plug, buy a DIN socket and a couple of RCA plugs, attach them together and use the standard RCA plug ins and outs. Alan may have one for you as well, IDK.

I do think burn-in can make a big difference and some companies like Jorma and Audience use Tesla coils to send very high voltages through their copper with great success, I have no idea why they don't market such devices. I may one day. It permanently transforms a copper cable into something better. It's not quite UPOCC silver, which imo is better, and some people want warmth from copper cables so I haven't marketed cables using such burn-in devices yet but I may in the future as well. So I think it's possible the AudioDharma hig power cooker may make for a nice improvement in low voltage MC setups, also for the tonearm cable.
 

tima

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Speaking of phono cables, can a low output MC cartridge ever actually break in a phono cable? What do people do to break in new phono cables? Is the cable cooker recommended in this situation?

A low voltage MC may never break-in through playing records alone. And some folks don't want to use an expensive cartridge to break in a cable.

When I reviewed the Kuzma 4Point tonearm with new bearings and Kondo wiring I used a Hagerman Audio Labs FryBaby2 break in device. This is a much lower cost option compared to AudioDharma and others, but certainly is sufficient for a phono cable. I made an adapter to attach to the cable clips that you would connect to the cartridge. I can send you photos through our other channel.

There is now a newer version.

 

dminches

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A low voltage MC may never break-in through playing records alone. And some folks don't want to use an expensive cartridge to break in a cable.

When I reviewed the Kuzma 4Point tonearm with new bearings and Kondo wiring I used a Hagerman Audio Labs FryBaby2 break in device. This is a much lower cost option compared to AudioDharma and others, but certainly is sufficient for a phono cable. I made an adapter to attach to the cable clips that you would connect to the cartridge. I can send you photos through our other channel.

There is now a newer version.


Tim, this looks interesting. Can you send me a picture of how you did it? My phono cable is DIN to RCA.
 

microstrip

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I do think burn-in can make a big difference and some companies like Jorma and Audience use Tesla coils to send very high voltages through their copper with great success, I have no idea why they don't market such devices. I may one day. It permanently transforms a copper cable into something better. It's not quite UPOCC silver, which imo is better, and some people want warmth from copper cables so I haven't marketed cables using such burn-in devices yet but I may in the future as well. So I think it's possible the AudioDharma hig power cooker may make for a nice improvement in low voltage MC setups, also for the tonearm cable.

Interesting. I always associated cable burn-in to the dielectric, not to the metal conductors - the only scientific evidence of cable burn-in I have ever found was related to noise in Teflon cables. Do you have any explanation for why high voltages transform the copper?
 

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