Phono cable recommendations?

[Atmasphere]

Apparently you didn't actually comprehend my post, or didn't read it, lol.

My post is about using XLR IN COMBINATION WITH ground wires specifically.

DIN plugs have a pin for ground wires, that's how it's different. If the tt doesn't have DIN it often still uses ground wires, but not all the time.

Also, you totally mistook the pin1 standard for the non-existent grounding standard between signal and chassis ground, and in this instance isolation between the pin1 connection and a separate ground connection for the ground wire. Please take the time to read, and comprehend what you're reading before you answer a post! If you don't you should ask for clarification and not assume things.

The issue is the ground wire AND Pin1 are 2 separate ground connections... and you don't see an issue here? Lol, sorry I know you are a balanced advocate, while I think it's ridiculous to use balanced for home audio, but what you wrote is simply a strawman, it is unrelated to what I actually wrote, your entire post is an answer to the strawman you just created.

Pin one and chassis ground should be the same. Otherwise the balanced standard (and its benefit) isn't supported. I now have the feeling you didn't get what I wrote as well. So that part is mutual

 

[microstrip]

There are some common misconceptions of what constitutes a balanced signal, and hence, balanced cable requirements. Friedrich Schaefer addressed this years ago in his excellent manual for the ASR Basis Exclusive phono preamp. in summary, a phono cartridge is an inherently balanced device and although many tonearms only output RCA cables, a cable adapter can easily be made to take advantage of your phono stage if it is a balanced design. The essentials are here: (...)

I read it differently - what is said is that you need a proper cable to get balanced operation of the cartridge. In many cases (single wire and ground cables) no adapter will manage to solve the problem. In fact, even converting a common two wire RCA cable to balanced usually needs some cutting and soldering - only a few tonearm cables have three separate grounding wires.

The definition of a balanced system needs addressing output and input impedance. And IMHO our choice of balanced or single ended in this hobby is due to our preference for specific sound signatures, not to any technical reasons.

 

[DaveC]

Pin one and chassis ground should be the same. Otherwise the balanced standard (and its benefit) isn't supported. I now have the feeling you didn't get what I wrote as well. So that part is mutual

C'mon, really? This was a separate paragraph in my post:

"So, the industry standard for XLR is to connect pin1 to shield at BOTH ends of a cable and to chassis close to the input inside the component, the idea being the shield is an extension of the chassis."

What you wrote makes no sense in context with the above! \

I NEVER SAID there is no industry standard for the pin1 connection! You just didn't take the time to understand what I wrote!

Also... I totally understand what you wrote, because I READ IT! It's totally obvious you didn't read what I wrote, because you answered a totally different thing! You put words in my mouth and now I have to deal with this because you couldn't be bothered to actually read and comprehend a post before you responded to it.

 

[DasguteOhr]

only has to do with the phono cable to a limited extent, but with low voltages it is advisable to connect a step up transformer to the phono amp.

Use a symmetrical cable, two identical inner conductors and a shield. Use the shielding as a tone arm grounding and as interference protection for the cable.

In order to further improve the suppression of common-mode interference voltage, a transformer can also be connected between the two devices.
Since a transformer does not transmit any common-mode interference, it improves the interference protection considerably.
It is difficult to find the right transformer for the cartridge,unfortunately there is no one that fits everyone.

 

[Atmasphere]

The definition of a balanced system needs addressing output and input impedance. And IMHO our choice of balanced or single ended in this hobby is due to our preference for specific sound signatures, not to any technical reasons.

Usually a balanced connection is low impedance. For line signals for a very long time, 600 ohms was the load you had to be able to drive. These days with voltage instead of power standards being employed, that's gone a bit higher but the source should be able to drive 1000-2000 ohms.

One reason for balanced line operation is to eliminate colorations. Every audiophile knows this innately whether they think they know it or not. This is because balanced operation is used in nearly all of the best recordings ever made- and as our systems improve we hear more and more out of those recordings, even ones made over 60 years ago. The only reason we don't experience this universally in high end audio is that so many high end audio manufacturers choose to not support the balanced standard or worse yet don't know that there is a standard. So we hear differences often brought on by balanced connections that aren't performing properly because some part of the standard was ignored.

I NEVER SAID there is no industry standard for the pin1 connection!

However, there's no standard for this so it's also possible the preamp design will allow for pin1 to be connected, which depends on the preamp, but I have run into cases where there was less noise with pin1 not used.

OK- can we agree that my lack of comprehension might have something to do with how this is stated? Because when I put these two together, it sure looks like there is a contradiction. There certainly is a standard for this...

If you are using XLR plugs with a ground cable or DIN phono plug you will probably get best results leaving pin 1 disconnected at the preamp, and having it only connected at the DIN plug.

And this bit seems to run counter. Then:

"So, the industry standard for XLR is to connect pin1 to shield at BOTH ends of a cable and to chassis close to the input inside the component, the idea being the shield is an extension of the chassis."

Sorry, from my limited perception (and I'm not being sarcastic, I really do mean limited) this all looks contradictory. I've been doing (as I think you know) balanced line stuff longer than anyone else in high end audio (and by that I mean as a manufacturer); our MA-1 was the first balanced line power amp offered to high end audio and our MP-1 was the first balanced line preamp offered. So can you explain to me how you square all these comments as meaning exactly the same thing? I really do want to know if I'm missing something.

 

[DaveC]

Usually a balanced connection is low impedance. For line signals for a very long time, 600 ohms was the load you had to be able to drive. These days with voltage instead of power standards being employed, that's gone a bit higher but the source should be able to drive 1000-2000 ohms.

One reason for balanced line operation is to eliminate colorations. Every audiophile knows this innately whether they think they know it or not. This is because balanced operation is used in nearly all of the best recordings ever made- and as our systems improve we hear more and more out of those recordings, even ones made over 60 years ago. The only reason we don't experience this universally in high end audio is that so many high end audio manufacturers choose to not support the balanced standard or worse yet don't know that there is a standard. So we hear differences often brought on by balanced connections that aren't performing properly because some part of the standard was ignored.




OK- can we agree that my lack of comprehension might have something to do with how this is stated? Because when I put these two together, it sure looks like there is a contradiction. There certainly is a standard for this...



And this bit seems to run counter. Then:

Sorry, from my limited perception (and I'm not being sarcastic, I really do mean limited) this all looks contradictory. I've been doing (as I think you know) balanced line stuff longer than anyone else in high end audio (and by that I mean as a manufacturer); our MA-1 was the first balanced line power amp offered to high end audio and our MP-1 was the first balanced line preamp offered. So can you explain to me how you square all these comments as meaning exactly the same thing? I really do want to know if I'm missing something.

NOW YOU TOOK MY WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

This is ridiculous!

 

[DaveC]

Ralph, I'm done here.

1st, you totally misunderstood what I said, then you setup a strawman, putting words in my mouth I never said, then you took part of the post out of context in order to prove a point unrelated to the original post. Then, you claim GOD status and how could anyone possibly question you.

I expected better.

 

[Atmasphere]

1st, you totally misunderstood what I said, then you setup a strawman, putting words in my mouth I never said, then you took part of the post out of context in order to prove a point unrelated to the original post. Then, you claim GOD status and how could anyone possibly question you.

No-one is claiming GOD status in fact I was careful to point out that I really think I have a limited perspective (something that is inherent in the human condition). But since pin 1 is always tied to chassis, it seemed entirely fine to take your comments where you seem to be both supporting that and contradicting that, especially since its all in exactly the same context. I don't see the strawman and in particular I've not put words in your mouth. I am sorry that you took it that way as that is not my intention.

 

[Solypsa]

Hmm. This is a somewhat interesting topic too bad things are getting inflamed.

I for one will be glad to not have an rca connection on any equipment...it does not seem to me to be as well designed as a positive-lock multiple pin connector ( could be xlr or lemo or whatever is cool right now...).

As for phono I read once here on wbf an assertion that the physically small size of the tonearm din connector causes crosstalk- I have not tested for this and so say the following with this caveat in mind: it seems to me that the right connector at the preamp would be a 5 pin positive-lock connector. Perhaps in the larger xlr format. Add a ground lift for tonearm/ shield ground pin if that is a worry.

But this doesn't matter much as 90% of the phono out there is rca. So we live with it. But I cannot see how it is 'better'.

 

[DaveC]

No-one is claiming GOD status in fact I was careful to point out that I really think I have a limited perspective (something that is inherent in the human condition). But since pin 1 is always tied to chassis, it seemed entirely fine to take your comments where you seem to be both supporting that and contradicting that, especially since its all in exactly the same context. I don't see the strawman and in particular I've not put words in your mouth. I am sorry that you took it that way as that is not my intention.

Ok, finally, for a 3rd time... The post was about the interaction between the pin1 connection and a separate ground cable.

It had nothing at all to do with the pin1 standard, I explicitly stated that, in fact I gave it it's own paragraph!

 

[DaveC]

But I cannot see how it is 'better'.

With XLR, pin1 and the ground cable can make the same connection, which can add noise to the system.

As Marty's post said, RCA can be used either balanced or single ended in a phono cable setup, and this will avoid the issue I mentioned above, as RCA plugs only have 2 connections and not three. The RCA plug ground connection can be used the same as pin3 and the signal would be the same as pin2.

If the phono cable system does not use a separate ground cable than it's more of the standard XLR vs RCA pros and cons, and imo, you have a much better case for XLR in a phono setup WITHOUT a separate ground cable.

 

[Atmasphere]

With XLR, pin1 and the ground cable can make the same connection, which can add noise to the system.

Ok, finally, for a 3rd time... The post was about the interaction between the pin1 connection and a separate ground cable.

It had nothing at all to do with the pin1 standard, I explicitly stated that, in fact I gave it it's own paragraph!

I'm taking both of these which might appear to be out of context but I see them as directly related.

Pin 1 and a ground post are both tied to chassis. On this account, the two at the same time will have no effect on noise whatsoever. This has everything to do with the pin 1 'standard', as you put it.

But I cannot see how it is 'better'.

How it is better is the same way balanced is better in any other audio hookup. You get more neutrality from the cable. If ever there were a place to get this right, it would be the tonearm cable, since no matter how good the preamp, amp and speakers are they won't be able to fix anything that the cable gets wrong. And by 'wrong' I mean if you've ever heard the differences between two audio cables then you know exactly what I'm talking about.

If the input of the phono section has a high common mode rejection ratio (CMRR) you also have the possibility of less noise pickup between the arm and preamp.

 

[DaveC]

On this account, the two at the same time will have no effect on noise whatsoever. This has everything to do with the pin 1 'standard', as you put it.

This is where you are wrong.

But hey, I just build cables for a living and send them to people to test out, I have done that for 10 years or so now and have directly experienced phono preamps that do NOT want to have pin1 and the ground cable connected at the same time, otherwise you get more noise.

It is also different from the typical pin1 problem, but I don't think you'd know this as you don't even acknowledge it's a potential issue.

 

[Atmasphere]

I have done that for 10 years or so now and have directly experienced phono preamps that do NOT want to have pin1 and the ground cable connected at the same time, otherwise you get more noise.

I'm not doubting this at all. But for the record, any phono preamp where this happens isn't supporting the balanced standard.

The shield of a DIN connection for a tonearm is pin 3. At the XLR end this is pin 1. Its ground. At the other end of the DIN connector is the tonearm. Pin 3 of the DIN is (or should be) tied to the tonearm ground. In this way there are no connections between the cartridge and ground at any point.

I'm sure you know all this; I'm simply laying out the facts.

Now if you have a ground wire for the tonearm, and connect it to the chassis of the preamp, that connection will be in parallel with the shield connection. Neither connection is carrying any signal current. So you can see that its impossible for the wire to add or remove noise. It is superfluous of course since the shield is doing its job. But no noise is added.

However if the phono section is doing something with its ground in such a way that the ground wire and shield are somehow different, its entirely reasonable that the addition of the wire could create more noise. But that would also mean that the phono section has a poor common mode rejection value; that its somehow able to amplify the difference between the chassis connection and whatever ground is if that's not the chassis.

On a properly set up input, even if there were a large amount of RFI in the area, the loop caused by the shield and external wire should amount to nothing.

So I can only conclude that whatever phono setup where you've seen this happen is one that employs some sort of alternative scheme that is something other than AES48.

Just to add a bit more clarity, we have experiemented with alternative grounding schemes, allowing the audio ground to be different from the chassis ground. Even then we've not experienced any difference caused by an external grounding wire in addition to the shield, and over the years we've certainly seen a variety of bizarre 'balanced' tonearm cables with external ground wires (I got one like that from Graham once when I bought a 2.2 decades ago). That is why I say that the phono stage must have some sort of design issue if the noise is actually increased. If set up correctly it really shouldn't care.

 

[Solypsa]

How it is better is the same way balanced is better in any other audio hookup. You get more neutrality from the cable. If ever there were a place to get this right, it would be the tonearm cable, since no matter how good the preamp, amp and speakers are they won't be able to fix anything that the cable gets wrong. ...

Ralph- I was trying to say that I can't see how rca is better, after saying we put up with it since it's the majority standard for phono. So in brief I already agree with the point you are making after you replied to my post!

 

[DaveC]

I'm not doubting this at all. But for the record, any phono preamp where this happens isn't supporting the balanced standard.

The shield of a DIN connection for a tonearm is pin 3. At the XLR end this is pin 1. Its ground. At the other end of the DIN connector is the tonearm. Pin 3 of the DIN is (or should be) tied to the tonearm ground. In this way there are no connections between the cartridge and ground at any point.

I'm sure you know all this; I'm simply laying out the facts.

Now if you have a ground wire for the tonearm, and connect it to the chassis of the preamp, that connection will be in parallel with the shield connection. Neither connection is carrying any signal current. So you can see that its impossible for the wire to add or remove noise. It is superfluous of course since the shield is doing its job. But no noise is added.

However if the phono section is doing something with its ground in such a way that the ground wire and shield are somehow different, its entirely reasonable that the addition of the wire could create more noise. But that would also mean that the phono section has a poor common mode rejection value; that its somehow able to amplify the difference between the chassis connection and whatever ground is if that's not the chassis.

On a properly set up input, even if there were a large amount of RFI in the area, the loop caused by the shield and external wire should amount to nothing.

So I can only conclude that whatever phono setup where you've seen this happen is one that employs some sort of alternative scheme that is something other than AES48.

Just to add a bit more clarity, we have experiemented with alternative grounding schemes, allowing the audio ground to be different from the chassis ground. Even then we've not experienced any difference caused by an external grounding wire in addition to the shield, and over the years we've certainly seen a variety of bizarre 'balanced' tonearm cables with external ground wires (I got one like that from Graham once when I bought a 2.2 decades ago). That is why I say that the phono stage must have some sort of design issue if the noise is actually increased. If set up correctly it really shouldn't care.

Your assumption the component doesn't follow the balanced standard is not obvious. The standard is pin1 gets connected to chassis near the input. Beyond that, the way the designer deals with combining chassis ground (IEC inlet ground), the phono ground cable and signal ground is all in addition to following the balanced standard by connecting pin1 to chassis near the input.

Unfortunately, I can't inspect the phono preamps that I have run into with this issue, so I can't say how the above grounding issues were dealt with. But I also am not assuming that the designer is negligent, as the pin1 connection to chassis isn't rocket science and is widely known by even casual audio enthusiasts. I think there are also likely differences on the turntable end of things. So, I don't think we can jump to the conclusion it's a traditional pin1 problem, designer isn't following balanced standards... not likely imo!

So in real life there IS an issue with using XLR in addition to a ground cable (edit: in some cases). Exactly why is not quite as important as the fact issues exist. And unfortunately, these issues may result in people with phono setups that are noisier than they need to be, all because of the complexity of XLR containing a shield that is supposed to be connected to ground at BOTH ends. With an RCA phono cable the shield is connected at the DIN plug.

Besides the fact that balanced audio is overcomplicated and sounds worse than a good single ended system, in the case of phono it's not really necessary because, as has been mentioned, you're probably better off using a SUT input with balanced in and single ended out to a high quality SET based phono preamp. But the cable should be RCA as then it can be used in either this manner or, if the SUT input is too expensive the phono pre can use the same RCA cable in a more traditional approach. This is mentioned in the info that Marty posted as well, and is the best solution to this issue, IMO. The potential for hum pickup at the phono preamp because of the design of the RCA jack is not much of an issue.

 

[Solypsa]

With XLR, pin1 and the ground cable can make the same connection, which can add noise to the system.

As Marty's post said, RCA can be used either balanced or single ended in a phono cable setup, and this will avoid the issue I mentioned above, as RCA plugs only have 2 connections and not three. The RCA plug ground connection can be used the same as pin3 and the signal would be the same as pin2.

If the phono cable system does not use a separate ground cable than it's more of the standard XLR vs RCA pros and cons, and imo, you have a much better case for XLR in a phono setup WITHOUT a separate ground cable.

I don't make cables for a living so please understand that I am treading lightly, however:

1) your first paragraph ( above ) states: "With XLR, pin1 and the ground cable can make the same connection, which can add noise to the system."

I am still a bit confused. Maybe there are too many similar terms at play. So perhaps a scenario, as I would see it:

*Tonearm with 5 pin din connector
*Shielded cable
*Preamp with internal SUT

balanced XLR example:
Din R+ to right xlr 2 to SUT primary +
Din R- to right xlr 3 to SUT primary -
Din tonearm ground to xlr 1 to chassis
Shield to xlr 1 to chassis, and unterminated at din side ( usually afaik )

Ditto for left except xlr pin 1 only has shield as din tonearm ground is terminated already on right xlr.

balanced RCA example:
Din R+ to RCA pin to SUT primary +
Din R- to RCA barrel ( isolated from chassis ) to SUT primary -
Din tonearm ground to chassis
shield terminated at Din side pin 3...so connected to chassis via tonearm ground and unterminated at preamp side.

Is this how you see it as well? If so is your issue with the xlr example centered on if the shield is also terminated at the tonearm din?

just trying to wrap my head around why a two point connection is fundamentally better than three. Will re-read the last few posts as well


( btw I think it may be important to separate number of connections utilized from connector type for the sake of clarity...)

 

[Atmasphere]

Your assumption the component doesn't follow the balanced standard is not obvious.

Funny- I've been harping about exactly that for years and I think several times on this thread.

Unfortunately, I can't inspect the phono preamps that I have run into with this issue, so I can't say how the above grounding issues were dealt with. But I also am not assuming that the designer is negligent, as the pin1 connection to chassis isn't rocket science and is widely known by even casual audio enthusiasts. I think there are also likely differences on the turntable end of things. So, I don't think we can jump to the conclusion it's a traditional pin1 problem, designer isn't following balanced standards... not likely imo!

In my experience this happens all the time! Yes, its not rocket science, which is why I've been harping so much about it for years and years at this point. Where I've seen difficulties is defining what 'ground' is, and the industry's refusal to treat it properly. I don't know if this is a money saving effort (because audio transformers are expensive) or if manufacturers are simply unaware that a standard exists, but from dealing with interface issues for decades because of this problem, I can tell you for a fact that its rampant in this market.

So I'm thinking that our disagreement is based on your assumption that this sort of thing isn't likely (emphasis added in quote above), when its happening all the time.

If the chassis and audio grounds are different things, then you have to have a nice high CMRR value to prevent the two from making noise if both are employed (as in pin 1 ground and a ground wire). But!: when the two grounds are used as you describe, if the chassis and audio ground are different, they will be the same after the connections are made. This can cause a ground loop (which isn't supposed to be audible in balanced equipment) because somewhere downstream of the phono input there is a reason why the chassis and audio grounds are separate and it was just defeated by the connection of pin1 and the ground wire in your example. This would certainly increase noise!! And its entirely because the balanced standard isn't being observed.

If you look at the output of the phono section (or line stage in the case of an integrated preamp) you can see where this can be a problem. The balance standard requires that the ground contain no signal currents. But at the output of many 'high end audio' balanced products, a pair of coupling capacitors might be employed. When you see this, its because two single-ended circuits (that are out of phase with each other) are being used to drive the coupling caps and they reference ground. So the problem isn't that pin one is ground. Its understanding that ground can't be referenced! There aren't that many ways to really do this right. This is why long after tubes have gone the way in the recording studio, input and output transformers are still very much in use, despite the fact that very good CMRR numbers are available from solid state circuits. It happens that I patented a method that does not use signal transformers so excepting our preamps, if you don't see an output transformer in the phono preamp or linestage, its really really likely that the preamp doesn't support the standard.

But if it does support the standard then the addition of a ground wire to pin 1 will be of no consequence whatsoever.

So far I've yet to find all that many turntables that I see as problematic; some air bearing arms only have 4 wires to minimize their effect and they can be troublesome if you want to go balanced. There is also one turntable manufacturer that uses an integrated arm that is a real pain in the rear to set up balanced because you have to disassemble the base of the arm to make the connection.

 

[DaveC]

I don't make cables for a living so please understand that I am treading lightly, however:

1) your first paragraph ( above ) states: "With XLR, pin1 and the ground cable can make the same connection, which can add noise to the system."

I am still a bit confused. Maybe there are too many similar terms at play. So perhaps a scenario, as I would see it:

*Tonearm with 5 pin din connector
*Shielded cable
*Preamp with internal SUT

balanced XLR example:
Din R+ to right xlr 2 to SUT primary +
Din R- to right xlr 3 to SUT primary -
Din tonearm ground to xlr 1 to chassis
Shield to xlr 1 to chassis, and unterminated at din side ( usually afaik )

Ditto for left except xlr pin 1 only has shield as din tonearm ground is terminated already on right xlr.

balanced RCA example:
Din R+ to RCA pin to SUT primary +
Din R- to RCA barrel ( isolated from chassis ) to SUT primary -
Din tonearm ground to chassis
shield terminated at Din side pin 3...so connected to chassis via tonearm ground and unterminated at preamp side.

Is this how you see it as well? If so is your issue with the xlr example centered on if the shield is also terminated at the tonearm din?

just trying to wrap my head around why a two point connection is fundamentally better than three. Will re-read the last few posts as well


( btw I think it may be important to separate number of connections utilized from connector type for the sake of clarity...)

For XLR, the shield should be connected at Pin1 on both L and R sides as well as at the DIN plug ground, which is a little different than you state, both L and R would have shield connected to pin1, as well as connected at the DIN plug.

With RCA cables the convention is to connect ground ONLY at the DIN plug ground, what you state is correct AFAIK.

For my perspective, if I want to send someone a phono cable and not have issues to deal with later, I'd rather send an RCA cable. If I send an XLR phono cable with a separate ground wire, if I do connect shield at pin1 it's a gamble. IME, it's better not to because the customer may not get an ideal result if I do connect pin1, and they may never know it. However, the technically correct way to build the cable is with pin1 connected.

So, I think Ralph and myself see this from slightly different perspectives. If I send someone a properly built phono cable that happens to be noisier, even though it may not be my fault a customer often sees this as a failure of my design. Combine this with the fact that an RCA terminated phono cable can be used EITHER single ended or balanced and you can see why I am a proponent of RCA phono cables, and if phono preamp manufacturers would stop making gear that is improperly grounded OR they would stop putting XLR ins on their products I'd be happy, it would make my life and I'd argue everyone's life a little easier.

 

[DaveC]

Funny- I've been harping about exactly that for years and I think several times on this thread.

In my experience this happens all the time! Yes, its not rocket science, which is why I've been harping so much about it for years and years at this point. Where I've seen difficulties is defining what 'ground' is, and the industry's refusal to treat it properly. I don't know if this is a money saving effort (because audio transformers are expensive) or if manufacturers are simply unaware that a standard exists, but from dealing with interface issues for decades because of this problem, I can tell you for a fact that its rampant in this market.

So I'm thinking that our disagreement is based on your assumption that this sort of thing isn't likely (emphasis added in quote above), when its happening all the time.

If the chassis and audio grounds are different things, then you have to have a nice high CMRR value to prevent the two from making noise if both are employed (as in pin 1 ground and a ground wire). But!: when the two grounds are used as you describe, if the chassis and audio ground are different, they will be the same after the connections are made. This can cause a ground loop (which isn't supposed to be audible in balanced equipment) because somewhere downstream of the phono input there is a reason why the chassis and audio grounds are separate and it was just defeated by the connection of pin1 and the ground wire in your example. This would certainly increase noise!! And its entirely because the balanced standard isn't being observed.

If you look at the output of the phono section (or line stage in the case of an integrated preamp) you can see where this can be a problem. The balance standard requires that the ground contain no signal currents. But at the output of many 'high end audio' balanced products, a pair of coupling capacitors might be employed. When you see this, its because two single-ended circuits (that are out of phase with each other) are being used to drive the coupling caps and they reference ground. So the problem isn't that pin one is ground. Its understanding that ground can't be referenced! There aren't that many ways to really do this right. This is why long after tubes have gone the way in the recording studio, input and output transformers are still very much in use, despite the fact that very good CMRR numbers are available from solid state circuits. It happens that I patented a method that does not use signal transformers so excepting our preamps, if you don't see an output transformer in the phono preamp or linestage, its really really likely that the preamp doesn't support the standard.

But if it does support the standard then the addition of a ground wire to pin 1 will be of no consequence whatsoever.

So far I've yet to find all that many turntables that I see as problematic; some air bearing arms only have 4 wires to minimize their effect and they can be troublesome if you want to go balanced. There is also one turntable manufacturer that uses an integrated arm that is a real pain in the rear to set up balanced because you have to disassemble the base of the arm to make the connection.

Ok, as I said I can't open up my customer's tts and phono pres, but I do have a hard time believing that this is that difficult for designers of phono preamps to get right.

From my perspective, this makes things difficult when they don't really have to be. When I send someone a properly built cable and it's noisy this is ALWAYS my fault.... So, I'd rather send an RCA cable. I'd rather ALL phono cables be RCA and made EXACTLY the same way every time. Phono preamp manufacturers can still use either SE or BAL. This would make my life easier and it's less likely a customer will have a noisier system than need be.